A Toast to Innovation in the Non-Alcoholic Beer Industry with Sam Ray (We Can Be Friends)

Discover the unexpected joys of alcohol-free beer as I, Ben, sit down with Sam Ray, the mastermind behind New Kids on the Block, We Can Be Friends, and uncover the vibrant world of non-alcoholic brews. Sam's dedication and inventive approach have led to creations that rival their alcoholic counterparts in complexity and taste, challenging the very notion of what a non-alcoholic beer can be. From discussing the economic implications of crafting these beverages to the cultural shifts in perception, this episode promises to enlighten both the beer connoisseur and the curious listener.

Sam and I navigate the intricacies of the alcohol-free beer landscape, addressing the vital role these drinks play for those who avoid alcohol for health or personal reasons. We delve into the legislative and societal hurdles these beverages face and the innovative strides being made to offer a wider selection in pubs and supermarkets. Our chat reveals the industry's passionate response to an evolving demand, emphasizing the variety and accessibility that are reshaping the sober community's options. 

Wrapping up our discussion, the spotlight turns to the camaraderie and mutual respect within the craft beer industry. We highlight how competition breeds creativity and the way brands like Attic Brew Co tip their hats to their peers. The conversation takes a turn to the personal as we share our love for the craft, the humor found in an alcohol-lover discussing non-alcoholic options, and the collective anticipation for what's brewing on the horizon. So, whether you're toasting to the future or simply savoring the conversation, join us for a refreshing look at alcohol-free beer that's rich with passion and ripe with innovation. Cheers to that!

To find out more about We Can Be Friends head on over to their website. Since recording this episode they have already released a new beer alongside a collaboration brew with Track, I won't tell you it was because of our conversation in this episode, but I also won't say otherwise. You can find We Can Be Friends at: https://wecanbefriends.co.uk/

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to the Sober Boozers Club podcast, a place where we can talk openly and honestly about addiction, sobriety and, strangely enough, beer. I'm Ben, I'm an alcoholic and for the last two years, I've been sampling some of the finest alcohol-free beers the world has to offer. Each week, I'll be joined by a different guest to discuss their own lived experiences on all things related to the world of low and no alcohol beverages. So pour yourself a tipple, relax and let me welcome you to the Sober Boozers Club. In today's episode, I'm talking to Sam Ray, who is the owner and founder of New Kids on the Block. We Can Be Friends Now. This is a brewery that came from nowhere and released one of the best beers I think I've ever tried, so I really wanted to find out who he was, what he was about and how he had the audacity to show up here and release a beer that just blew my mind. So we're going to find out about that. And it's just two guys talking about beer, really. So if that interests you, here you go. What?

Speaker 2: 1:06

are you drinking?

Speaker 1: 1:07

oh, you're not gonna like this.

Speaker 2: 1:09

It's lucky saint okay, no, I like a lucky saint.

Speaker 1: 1:12

I'm actually a fan yeah, I mean, there's a reason. It's, you know, so renowned, isn't there, lucky saint? But, I'm kind of at the point now where I've ran out of nice beers, shall we say, and I've only got my kind of supermarket beers, because I have to.

Speaker 1: 1:28

It's a really annoying thing. What I do is you have to kind of buy so many beers a month to then film them and talk about them on the internet and then your money's gone. So if you find ones that you really like, it's like a rare treat that you get to enjoy them more than twice a month. Yeah, craft beer is an expensive habit, isn't it? It really is. It's like a rare treat that you get to enjoy them more than twice a month.

Speaker 2: 1:45

Yeah, craft beer is an expensive habit, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 1:48

it really is.

Speaker 2: 1:49

It really is yeah it definitely burns a hole in the pocket. Um, so yeah, I'm I'm like a big fan of all all kind of styles of beer. So your supermarket ones up to your ones where people are doing really experimental stuff, I think there's a place for all of it, and all of it's made quite different as well. So I think it's like nice to have a mixture of stuff.

Speaker 1: 2:12

I think there's a place for everything when it's all good quality as well, like when I say it's not all good quality.

Speaker 2: 2:18

I think supermarkets have got a way to go, but you can certainly go into most uk supermarkets and get a decent amount of beer well, what I think is a breath of fresh air is when you go into pubs these days and they've got lucky saint on draft actually any alcohol free on draft. I mean it's still not a lot of places, but lucky saint seem to have done a good job, especially, especially where I am, like Kent, london, boulder there's a few places popping up that have got the taps installed and I mean it's good lager, it's really good.

Speaker 1: 2:54

It's a clever feature on their website. The whole find us on draft On holidays. That is like my go-to tool If I'm in the UK, of course. But speaking of the arrival of new beers, where on earth did you come from? Because, um, I mean and I hope you don't mind me saying this, but I was, you know, I was in the whole alcohol-free beer world a little bit and then I saw we can be friends and I saw, you know at the time, I think maybe 60 followers on Instagram and I thought, okay, okay, what's this? And I'll be honest, I thought this is going to be awful and I tried the first beer that you sent to me and it was possibly the nicest beer I've had. And that's not me, you know, blowing smoke up your ass. It was. It was amazing, to the point that I talked to my local bottle shop and said this is really good. You need to get this in, um, yeah, so so where? Where did you come from? What? What's your? What's your journey been?

Speaker 2: 3:58

thank you first of all that's a pretty, pretty high praise. I've been a brewer for about seven, eight years and, um, yeah, I worked in a production brewery making just grinding, making loads of session parallels and loads of cast beer, loads of keg beer, loads of cans, just like really pumping it out. So I kind of learned the trade quite a bit and got to know beer quite, quite well, how how to keep it, how to brew it, and I'd always been interested in making an alcohol-free beer. I come I become really excited about it. About three years ago it was, it was like mash gang come up. Yeah, it was never really an option to have just a brewery that does alcohol-free beer. I always see it as I make all these other beers and I have an alcohol-free beer too. So it was really exciting and interesting that a brewery come up was doing exciting things, being a bit different. It's always seen, been seen as a little bit boring, maybe.

Speaker 1: 5:06

Yeah, I don't know it's kind of. It's got the the clinical kind of side to it, doesn't it? I mean I was talking to alex from mash gang about this and he said you know you get the, your blue labels and it's your low and no section of a supermarket and it's all very clinical and very proper um yeah and then I get what you mean.

Speaker 1: 5:25

You know, you see brands like mash gang that came along and all of a sudden they were kind of like no, fuck you, this is craft beer, it just doesn't have alcohol in it exactly oh shit yeah and I think there's still some people that don't really understand it.

Speaker 2: 5:40

I tell them I make alcohol-free beer and they're like, why? And it's just like, because it's good, it's a, it's a nice drink, it's really interesting. Um, I don't want to sit there and drink coca-cola all the time. I want to have a beer, but I don't necessarily want to get drunk. There's like there's so many, so many angles that I just, yeah, some people just don't understand it. They just don't get it at all. Um, I think I think my parents don't get it either. I try to tell them, like it's alcohol free beer, um, but they're still with the mindset of um, so you make beer, is it a lager? Like no, and they're like okay, tell me when, tell me when you've got a lager. It's like okay, right, cool, I'll do that.

Speaker 2: 6:29

Going back to the question, where did it kind of come from? Yeah, so mashgan kind of come up. They made it a bit exciting. They seemed like it was a bit of an option. Um, a little while before that, I was experimenting a bit on some small batch stuff, trying to make some alcohol free beers. The science for small scale brewing wasn't really there at the time either. Really strange things that like trying to heat the beer up to get rid of the ethanol and like sending it through brewery equipment where it shouldn't go and stuff just to jump in and do these crazy experiments yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:16

But as the science got more, I started to experiment a bit more and I made a couple of beers with the old brewery and they actually come out really well and I kind of stumbled across a few things that I don't think everyone does. The whole thing about making a really awesome beer that can stand up to a brewery's table beer or one of their session beers and be as good, if not better, is a really exciting concept to me and I look forward to trying to see where this can go, because I've only just started um and I'm really pleased everyone likes the beers, but I feel like there's plenty more in them.

Speaker 1: 8:02

The response that you've been getting online is is wild. Um, and not just from kind of you know customers, but from the industry as well. Um, everyone that I've spoken to within the industry when the beer first kind of landed, it was have you tried this beer? It's really bloody good. Where did this beer come from? It's really good and it really it does it. It stands next to those table beers that you describe perfectly and it's one of the first beers that I had tried in a long time where you know you've got your mash gangs but you expect them to be good. You know like there's there's a precedent there, but with this it was kind of okay, this is new and you try it and you think this is. This is as close to the real thing in terms of high abv craft beer as as you can get it's. It really is a very good liquid. Well, two now and in quick succession as well.

Speaker 2: 8:59

Two releases yeah, I think there's a lot of new like products and ideas um that have come about recently that really help with getting the beers actually tasting like beers, especially in terms of like product wise. Um, there's some really good like new yeast and and stuff that really really help out. So, yeah, I'm excited for the whole industry. To be honest, I feel like the uk is really a great driving force in in worldwide alcohol free beer.

Speaker 1: 9:35

It's strange, isn't it? Because when you look at the kind of picture of the past that has been painted of britain, you know like booze britain, binge britain, all of that kind of stuff. And then you see, you know younger generations or you know the general sober kind of community growing and not just sober people but also people taking dry days or maybe being more aware of what they're drinking. It's strange how quickly that kind of feels like it's come around, or perhaps it hasn't come around quickly. Perhaps it hasn't come around quickly, perhaps it's only come around quickly for me because I had to stop drinking very, very quickly, but it really is growing. In the two years that I've been alcohol-free I've seen so many different breweries pop up, different beers, and the industry just seems to be going from strength to strength.

Speaker 2: 10:24

Yeah, it does. Um, I don't know what's going on too much in other countries. I know german. Germany's always had good culture of alcohol-free brewing. They've had some great beers in the past, but I don't. It's not like craft beer.

Speaker 2: 10:41

Craft beer, like it's just happened kind of in the last couple of years, that more more american beers are coming over and and you're able to compare, like the american stuff with the, the british stuff, and you can see that there's differences there and how they in how they do stuff to how we do stuff.

Speaker 2: 10:58

But I don't really feel like that has happened with alcohol-free beer yet like the american stuff's not really come over. So we've got this driving force doing all of these great things and I don't know how it stacks up with what they do, whether they're doing different stuff, whether it tastes completely different or or what, but it doesn't seem to phase the, the uk break brewers at all. We're just kind of powering through and just like it's come such a long way in the last few years that I think, um, my plan for the future is definitely to to work with some some other other breweries and maybe some alcohol free breweries and see if we can put our heads together and like take it that step further yeah, some co-labs are very much needed yeah yeah, because it still feels special.

Speaker 1: 11:46

I think like this, it feels like a little corner of the industry that's very lovely and very nice to each other um, yeah and I don't. I don't know if the beer industry as a whole is as toxic as some people might have made it out to be at one point um but within the craft industry, alcohol-free-wise. Everything that I've heard is mostly positive.

Speaker 2: 12:11

I've actually been quite surprised. I feel like it's still a little bit separate at the moment the alcohol-free beer world and the actual beer world and I feel like it's only recently that those two things have just been coming together. I don't, I've actually noticed it with you, like you're speaking to some of the the craft beer guys that are into their like high ABV stuff and they're asking you for, like, what beers should I be drinking? And yeah, it's like it's just started to come together, which it seems like I've come into it at a really good time, because I've grown up in a world of regular beer. I don't know if it's called regular beer.

Speaker 1: 12:53

I've been trying to find Full fat, full fat I like to go with now.

Speaker 2: 12:57

Full fat beer Normally with little quotation marks. Not. Alcohol-free beer is beer, but I don't know how to say it when I put it into emails or in conversations.

Speaker 1: 13:13

I had someone once try to um. It's actually why why my page became what it is with the whole like posh nonsense for a kind of spiel. Um was. It was a waiter in a quite a posh hotel I was staying in um and he was talking about the best way to drink alcohol-free wine and he literally called it fake wine and I'm so fake wine.

Speaker 1: 13:39

It's like it's got grapes in it. What more do you want? And yeah, I mean, that's, that's the thing with um, with alcohol-free beer, like it's still made in the same way.

Speaker 2: 13:53

You know the way that I make it is because, yeah, I want, I want it to taste like beer. Like I'm into beer, I don't really. Well, I mean, I'll say that I don't want fruit juice or something, but I'll probably do some weird sour at some point. That's like 50% fruit. So never say never to anything.

Speaker 1: 14:15

Yeah, you've got to have a little bit of ridiculousness within it, but you know we want options. That's the thing. That's the thing Like. As a sober person, I want options. As someone that wished that I could moderate my drinking, I would have wanted options for when I was definitely not going to drink drive, because I'm not a naughty boy. That's all we want are decent options.

Speaker 2: 14:39

Yeah, I mean you're drinking an adult option. You want to sit there and cook and have a beer and spend time with your loved ones and your children and drink a beer, but not have the alcohol in it. It's like feeling like an adult and doing adult things too.

Speaker 1: 14:58

Yeah, it was massive. I mean, I've said from the start that alcohol-free beer literally saved my life.

Speaker 1: 15:04

I've said from the start that alcohol-free beer literally saved my life, and I know that sounds like a very dramatic statement, but for me it's not, because if alcohol-free beer didn't exist and wasn't good, then I would have carried on drinking because the thought of not being able to do the social things that I enjoyed doing was just too much for me.

Speaker 1: 15:24

So the existence of alcohol-free beer literally saved my life, and it's there for sober people. It's not suitable for everybody, because for some people giving up alcohol it's too much of a trigger and it reminds them of I'm going to say it now the real thing. But it's such a good tool for certain people. But it's not just for sober people, is it? It's, you're right, it's the people that you know designated drivers, people who are on antibiotics, people that are trying to cut down on their drinking, having dry days like it's. It's for everybody. It's not just for that very small group of people within the community, and I think it's about making it accessible to everybody. That's a really important thing. So, seeing it in more bars and pubs and I in the last, even in the last couple of months I'm seeing it more and more and more and more decent options as well, and it's a really lovely thing to see yeah, it definitely is.

Speaker 2: 16:23

Uh, it's always been a bit of a weird one to get it onto bars before. There's always been extra processes that you need to go through, so to have so many people experimenting with them processes and getting them onto bar and seeing how it goes is massive as well. It's like that's innovation in itself. Most people probably don't see it, but that's massive innovation on part of alcohol-free beer in the UK. Is there anyone in your world that still doesn't quite understand it?

Speaker 1: 17:00

The thing that I have quite a lot is the whole ABV thing, where people within the kind of sober community will come at me and say you're drinking, that it's 0.5%, it's still got alcohol in it. And then you have to do the whole. You know well, actually orange juice has got that much in it or bananas are 0.3 up to 0.5 if they're really really ripe and that's kind of a thing that I think and that's down to you know, uk legislation really is not being able to call a 0.5% beer alcohol-free.

Speaker 2: 17:37

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 17:38

And it's just ridiculous, whereas I mean Lucky Saint can call theirs alcohol-free because it's brewed in Germany, where the laws are more relaxed. Yeah, that doesn't make sense to me.

Speaker 2: 17:49

Yeah, no, it doesn't to me either. I think it's pretty much the whole world, isn't it? Well, like a large majority of it is 0.5% is alcohol-free. It's just not the UK. There's a term that they have in the legislation which is so 0.5% beer is de-alcoholized beer, which is the traditional method of taking the alcohol out of the beer.

Speaker 1: 18:15

Yeah, it's like vacuuming, isn't it? Am I right? Yeah?

Speaker 2: 18:20

yeah, that's the process in a nutshell. But not all beer that's 0.5% is de-alcoholized. You could technically put that on your packaging without% is de-alkalized. So you could technically put that on your packaging without it being de-alkalized because it's 0.5%. It's really weird legislation, but I think they're looking to change it at the moment.

Speaker 1: 18:43

Yes, I heard that recently that it was being looked into. But with these things maybe it's just because I've lived in the UK my entire life I kind of go oh yeah, okay, of course it will yeah.

Speaker 2: 18:56

So looking into it also, I've always wondered about like where could you take these beers and if you've done like a 0.7 percent beer just to try and add a bit more flavor, a bit more body there's I mean, it'd be very hard for an adult to feel anything from a 0.7 percent beer. So would you feel that that's for you personally be able to drink that and still feel like?

Speaker 1: 19:28

yeah, I know, I know what you I think. It's kind of. I think with that it is each to their own. Like, was it? I think it was Tiny Rebel? No, it wasn't Tiny Rebel, was it Mashkang?

Speaker 1: 19:42

And Vocation there was a beer that came out that was 1%, basically two years ago, and that was just at the start of my sobriety and I drank it and didn't realize it was one percent and then I was kind of like, oh, what have I done? Like, oh, this is awful. Didn't feel drunk in the slightest, had no inclination to go back and have any more, um, but still a part of me was like, have I have? I broke my sobriety and some people would probably tell me, yes, um. So some people are going to be listening to this now and they're going to never listen to another thing I ever do because I'm not sober, because I once drank a one percent beer, um, but I think if, if you can, if you can do it and honestly say to yourself I will have this and then that will be that at like 0.7, 0.8, or up to one, I don't see a problem with that.

Speaker 1: 20:38

Personally, then I'm one of these people that I kind of and this is how I know I'm an addict is that I feel like I could probably have a pint and be fine. I'm never going to because I don't't know that. I feel like I probably could because I've gone two years without now well, two years plus now, um, but it's kind of I know what could happen if I go down that path again, because it was really messy for me. Yeah, and with all of the good stuff that's out there, what's the point? There's no point in me going back to it. There's really good beers that exist that don't have alcohol in them, but it would be interesting to kind of see where people stand with that, because for you, especially because you're not just trying to sell to sober people it's about everybody looking at their drinking and being more kind of efficient in cutting down how much they drink or just, like we say, having options, because not everybody that drinks beer is an alcoholic, and that's something that I think sober people need to realize.

Speaker 1: 21:46

Um, yeah because otherwise we just we'd fucking hate everyone.

Speaker 2: 21:50

Yeah, because me personally, I'm not a sober person. I drink beers now and again. I find that I drink more alcohol-free beers these days.

Speaker 1: 22:05

Yeah, I think that seems to be a thing within the beer industry as a whole. Like Mark Dredgege, he drinks mostly alcohol free um yeah I know there are sober brewers that have to try proper beer again. We're calling it proper beer now, but, um, we have to try beer with alcohol in from time to time because it's when you make beer. You have to know what beer tastes like you do yeah, yeah absolutely.

Speaker 1: 22:36

It's just one of those, isn't it? And I think it is really important to kind of think, to remember that not everybody that drinks is an alcoholic, just because some of us are, and the growth of the industry is only good for me. How difficult was it setting up from scratch, like you say? It was a three-year process from like concept to launch. How many challenges did you stumble upon when trying to get the beer out into the world?

Speaker 2: 23:05

Well, it was a long process. I was still at the brewery up until the beginning of last year, so I mean, I was experimenting with alcohol-free beers, not under this brand. The brand actually come together pretty quickly. The only thing that took a long time was coming up with a name. Yeah, I remember. Yeah, yeah, I had lists and lists of names I had. I have some. Not, I was dead set on and I look back at them now and I'm so pleased I didn't go with them. I kind of there was part of me as well that didn't want to be a brewery or a brew co or tied ultimately to just beer. I kind of see myself as a drinks brand. I'm a drinks brand, but I'll predominantly do beer. So I mean, at one point, if there's something that I want to do, I'm just I'm just gonna do it.

Speaker 1: 24:11

Yeah, so the name was kind of. It's always the hardest thing, isn't it? Finding a name like being in bands for for years.

Speaker 2: 24:18

It's always okay, what we're gonna call ourselves, and it takes forever, like it does something it does, and everyone has a different idea too, don't they? Yeah?

Speaker 1: 24:28

it's a nightmare. I mean I've seen today low tide changed um. I've had a re rebranding and changed their name. Yeah, it's a nightmare. I mean I've seen today low tide changed um. I've had a re rebranding and changed then yeah, it looks really cool it does look cool, but it was. You know, I woke up and saw. It was the first thing I saw. When I woke up today, I saw these cans on my instagram feed and I was like that looks like low tide.

Speaker 1: 24:46

But it's not low tide and then it was like, oh okay, I see what's.

Speaker 2: 24:49

I see what's happened here I was about to race to the comments to say, Rob, someone's stolen your branding.

Speaker 1: 24:57

Yeah, I was literally thinking that. I was thinking this is outrageous, what's happened here. But yeah, it was something I didn't expect to see today.

Speaker 2: 25:06

No me neither.

Speaker 1: 25:09

Because they've been going for a while now and they've seen the industry change so much since they started. I think it just kind of highlights how good a time it is that you're getting into it. It really does feel like we're on the cusp of something really, really exciting within the world of alcohol-free beer.

Speaker 2: 25:33

Yeah, I don't know whether many people know rob was um rob from low tide below bruco, sorry, um. He was one of the early champions of alcohol-free beer. He was a really early adopter and he's been like fundamental in the the whole of uh, british alcohol-free beer. So they've they've done some amazing things out of the, the public eye that make low tide what it is. So they're, they're like one of my big inspirations. Them like the mouskang guys as well, but it'd be really lovely too, like everyone, just things just full of nice people.

Speaker 1: 26:12

I can remember being in the um in attic brews, um, like office, the day that they first got your beer and they were like, have you tried this? Ben, I was like yep, no, it's really good, isn't it? Like? Yeah, and then, um, one of the directors turned around the directors of attic and was like I've bought more of it. It was like sweet, that's really good. And you know, I was in there literally doing work with them for their alcohol-free pail and here we are discussing how good another brand's beer is yeah and it just you wouldn't think that the industry would be like that, you know, with competitors.

Speaker 1: 26:51

essentially, I think it's just a really lovely thing to witness.

Speaker 2: 26:56

Yeah, it is. The guys from Attic have been really really good too. I know that they work a bit with Rob too, but they're really they're kind of got their arm of their business, cracking on with alcohol-free stuff as well and they're bringing out some really good stuff, really forward-thinking, hot-forward beers. So she's excited to see where they go over the next year too.

Speaker 1: 27:24

They do a lot more than you realise, like, obviously, with Clarkson's beer, and it was like okay okay, that's the only reason I bought Clarkson's beer.

Speaker 1: 27:33

And it was like, okay, okay, um, that's the only reason I bought clarkson's beer was because I know they had a hand in it, yeah, and it was like, okay, yeah, it's nice, because I. That's one thing I hate. When you get brands like that, with jeremy clarkson releasing alcohol-free beer for january, and it's like, come on, man, you know that Jeremy Clarkson doesn't support alcohol-free beer. I mean, maybe I've got that wrong, maybe he absolutely does, but it just feels like it's some companies that have the money to do it will release just anything that's alcohol-free.

Speaker 1: 28:11

And I think that's the thing that really needs to change within the alcohol-free industry, or I hope that people wake up to it, because if I'm going to a bar and I'm trying a heineken, I probably won't drink much more alcohol-free beer from someone who's been on the brewing side of things, I do kind of understand breweries bringing out their alcohol-free beer in jan, january, and trying to have a product available, because January notoriously for a brewery is an awful, awful time like it's.

Speaker 2: 28:49

So it's such a hard industry to break even, let alone make money, that to have a whole month of sales being slashed by 50% is really it's a really tough month. People generally rely on having a good Christmas and that's not extra, extra money going into the coffers or into the director's pockets. It's generally to get through January. So I think there has been a bit of that culture in the past, like let's have something else to sell. We'll still sell a few beers, but let's have something that we can sell a bit through in January. I feel like the idea of that is slowly changing and there wasn't really I mean, I was, I was fairly new in january but I haven't really seen a drop off in the amount of people purchasing the beer over february, which has been a real surprise to me and um, I've been kind of happy about it, to be honest. I'm like, okay, so people do want this option year round and you get breweries like um.

Speaker 2: 30:01

Have you had the new track bearded alcohol-free sonoma yes, I have I mean they bought it out in in february, which is like that's a cool thing to do. It's like I didn't know, just trying to rush it out for january, but yeah, but bringing it out in february and actually think the second Cloudwater one that they did come out towards the end of January, so it wasn't even like right, we need this for January.

Speaker 1: 30:28

That's for Fresh, wasn't it? Was it Fresh, or was it one after Fresh?

Speaker 2: 30:32

I think they're both called Fresh.

Speaker 1: 30:34

Oh, okay, I had Fresh and oh, the Citra one. It was Fresh and then fresh Citra edition. Yeah, that's the one that I had most recently was the Citra edition. They're very similar beers actually mostly, but very, very good, yeah, they are, they're really good. The attitude is shifting. I've never thought about it like that, to be honest, the whole. You know, when you have brewers releasing something for January to make money, you kind of see it as like, oh, yeah, okay, but then you're quite right in, hospitality in January is terrible, yeah.

Speaker 2: 31:08

And I think maybe that's not the whole reason. I'm sure they do want to make a wicked beer and they do want to like experiment and try stuff, but I do feel like that is part of the reason also, I think it's.

Speaker 1: 31:18

You know I'm guilty of falling into the trap of thinking of kind of ignoring. You know that these breweries do need to sell actual beer as well. Because I'm so in the world of alcohol-free that whenever you see someone bring out an alcohol-free beer that you know I mean there's not many companies that bring out an alcohol-free beer that you know I mean there's not many companies that bring out an alcohol-free beer that you think that they maybe have sinister motives. But, like I say, when Clarkson brought his out it was kind of like no, you don't get to do this, I'm going to drink it because I want to try Attic's lager, but not yours. But you are right, you know they do need to make their money and they do need to keep the business going for for people's jobs, etc.

Speaker 2: 32:05

So I'll I'll maybe get off my high horse on that one for now yeah, um, yeah, I think there's a difference between trying something and supporting it, isn't there? Like, if there's something, if there's a brand that you don't want to fully support you, you still have the right to?

Speaker 1: 32:27

try it. Well, it's like sam's brown ale. Um yeah, from sam smith I mean samuel. I mean samuel smith brewery is not a brewery that I like and I don't like the guy who owns the operation. But, my God, their brown ale is fantastic and you know it's not the guy who owns the company. Didn't fucking make it, Someone else did. So fair play to them for making such a good brown ale, because it's delicious, but the company ab are boring, you know.

Speaker 2: 33:03

Yeah, they are, and it's really surprising because I've probably given them a lot of money in my younger days.

Speaker 1: 33:10

Oh, I was the same.

Speaker 2: 33:12

It used to be the cheapest place to drink, so I was also in a band as well and, as you know, know, it's not it doesn't pay, does it? It doesn't pay. No, so, um, I'll probably show my age. You used to be able to get pints of the lager for two quid, so, yeah, we used to go there quite a lot. Yeah, it did used to make the tables go green, which was a bit worrying, but I think that I think when you're 21, 22, you don't really care about that though, do you?

Speaker 1: 33:41

yeah, no, you just want beer in your face, exactly, yeah, I do think, um, maybe big alcohol could do a little bit more now for the industry. I mean, I can remember going to the the heineken um brewery tour in amsterdam ago and they were really pushing the Heineken 0.0. And it was. You know, it was exciting, and at the time it was like do you know what Fair play to them? They didn't release one for years. They wanted to get it right and when it came to market it was probably one of the best out there.

Speaker 1: 34:14

But, now it just it's aged terribly, and do you think that these kind of companies could revisit their process or refresh the drink and make it better? Or would that actually be really harmful to people like yourself that are actually committed to making a good fucking beer because you want to make a good fucking beer?

Speaker 2: 34:38

I think it's's again. It's a different. It's almost like two separate industries, isn't it? Like the big, the big turn it up lager world is is a million miles away from what a lot of these beers that we drink are like. It's so far removed. It could be like my beer and, uh, cabaret chocolate in terms of how far apart they are. I think it's just about cutting costs and making as much money as possible and just having like a really solid, consistent product that you can just pump out really quickly. So I don't know. I think it's nice that those big beer has started to do like unfiltered beers and they're trying to like make a more flavorful, like people's palates have changed a little bit so that they're edging towards it and trying to get out tastier.

Speaker 1: 35:33

They'll get better like five years after the rest of us have got there. Yeah, when all the hops have run out yeah, well, the message is support your local bottle shop. I think um yes, it is absolutely.

Speaker 2: 35:44

I think that's that's the thing always go to your local bottle shop. I mean, even if you buy one beer a month, um, they could really do it. At the moment, retail is in such a horrendous place in the uk that, um, yeah, but bottle shops are are in decline and it's it's. It's a shame to see, and they do. They do need a bit of support. So always, yeah, go to a bottle shop yeah, I always advocate bottle shops.

Speaker 1: 36:14

You know like I get. I get discount codes and all of this nonsense sent through to me, um, quite often, and I'll I'll mention it because you know if, if people want to use it, then cool, I can use it. But my, my, the place that I will go to first and foremost is always sturchley wines. Um, because that's my local bottle shop and even if I'm, you know, if I'm getting beers that I would order directly from a brewery, I will always go to sturchley wines and spirits. If I'm, you know, if I'm getting beers that I would order directly from a brewery, I will always go to sturchley wines and spirits if I know they have it in. And if they don't have it in, when I go in there I'll say I've been drinking this lately, you should get it, because then I'll come and buy it off you you know, it's just it's.

Speaker 1: 36:54

It's really important and more that we support. We don't want these places to go out of business because we love beer.

Speaker 2: 37:04

Yeah, and they're often run by a couple or a small family. They're not like big businesses that have loads of staff and stuff. They're like one or two people that work extremely hard to try and make their little bottle shop in whatever town work.

Speaker 1: 37:30

So you've said, you know going forward, you'd like to do a sour, you'd like to do some collabs. You've already got two beers out at the moment that have been well, they've gone down incredibly well. Um, what would you like the next 12 months to look like for you?

Speaker 2: 37:43

okay. So I want to work with some different brewers, as I said. Um, maybe, maybe some alcohol-free brands see what? See, because my recipes are my own. I've've been working with Ben from from Gravity Wells, so I took him the recipes in the first place and we've been kind of tinkering about with them for the past. I mean, it's only been like three months, but it seems like a lifetime already, but it's only been the last few months. But we've been tinkering about with them and trying to refine them and get get the processes done and stuff.

Speaker 2: 38:20

So I don't know how people make these beers. I have no idea. Um, everyone's beer seems to taste a bit different to mine, so I guess they've got completely different methods. I think that's what's quite nice about it is with craft beer. There's a kind of a method in the way that people produce these beers and they're not similar at all, but the process is quite similar and they're all trying to get to the same goal and it's been quite refined over the last 10 years, whereas alcohol-free is just like all over the place. Everyone's doing completely different things. So I'd like to take the recipes in different places and just try and see what some amazing brewers think of the recipes and what they would do and their take on it and see if we can take it a step further. I like drinking IPAs parallels so predominantly my output will be those because I just like drinking them the most out of all beers. Like I'll probably have one stout in every 20 beers that I'll have. So in my eyes I'll do one stout every 20 releases.

Speaker 1: 39:36

It makes sense, though you've got it. You know if you, if you love it, that's what you got to make. Yeah, like there's no point in in making something for the sake of making it. I mean, there is a point, but it's some people don't work like that. I think it's. It's quite nice to only have things in your arsenal that you love and you you really care about, so I think that's a good way to do it yeah, and I think he's getting excited about stuff too.

Speaker 2: 40:00

So I've just set up a small kit that I'm going to do research and development on, and I've started producing small batch lagers on the system and that's going really well. So, um, I think I need to run it maybe one more time before I go full scale on it, but they're tasting really good. I really want to do a stupid sour as well. So hopefully by the end of summer I'll have a core range and a couple more styles. I don't know whether that's pushing it, because I'm a bit limited in what I do, it's just me. So, um, but hopefully, core range, few more ipas, few collabs, a sour and a lager.

Speaker 1: 40:45

That might be a bit too much, but I'm going to try well, I look forward to trying them as and when you release them thank you very much for the chat. Um, I could talk about just beer all day it, which is probably really unhealthy for an alcoholic to say, but thank you for making the industry a better place with your presence and I can't wait to see what comes in the future.

Speaker 2: 41:08

No worries, thanks for listening to me waffle on and being a beer geek, it's my pleasure. Cheers Ben.

Speaker 1: 41:15

Don't say I didn't warn you. It's two men talking about beer, it's just. This one doesn't have alcohol in it, which is good for Cheers. Ben, maybe put a word beer afterwards if you're struggling. It's really really good liquid and I can't wait to see what they come up with next. So you do that for me and I'll see you very soon.