Redefining Revelry: Crafting Inclusivity with Andy Mee's Alcohol-Free Vision

Have you ever raised a glass at a celebration, only to wish there was a non-alcoholic option that didn't feel like an afterthought? Andy Mee, founder of the Alcohol-Free Drinks Company, joins us to share how his personal journey to sobriety led to a business that's transforming the landscape of social drinking. We traverse the burgeoning world of non-alcoholic beers that dare to stand toe-to-toe with their boozy brethren, offering a new realm of inclusivity within drink menus everywhere. Toast to this enlightening conversation that uncovers the heartening shift in societal norms, where choosing not to drink is not only accepted but celebrated.

As we pull up a barstool alongside Andy, we're taking a closer look at how non-alcoholic beer is crafting its niche in the most unexpected of watering holes—from rugby clubs to the storied pubs of old. Together, we unpack the changing face of drinking culture, where a night out no longer means leaving your car keys at home. Discover the economic and social windfalls that venues are reaping as they tap into the potential of non-alcoholic drafts, catering to the mindful drinker and fostering a safer, more responsible community spirit. This episode is a must-listen for anyone curious about the intersection of tradition, innovation, and the 'flexi-drinking' phenomenon taking root among younger generations.

Finally, the curtains are pulled back to reveal the influential hand of the big drinks industry, especially during the high spirits of festive seasons. Andy retells the tale of his first sober Christmas and challenges the pervasive narrative that equates alcohol with celebration. We're giving voice to the unsung heroes and sober celebrities who are rewriting their life's script, minus the intoxicating plot twists. Gaze into the future with us as we envision alcohol-free spaces where camaraderie doesn't hinge on a drink's proof. Andy's endeavor at 58 to revolutionize social spaces is not just about what's in your glass—it's about crafting a society rich with choice and free from stigma. Join us in raising a glass—alcohol-free, of course—to those paving the way for a more inclusive tomorrow.

The Alcohol Free Drinks company are a specialist retail and distribution company promoting the sale of Alcohol Free Drinks across the UK. You can find out more about them by heading over to https://alcoholfreedrinks.co.uk/

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to the Sober Boozers Club podcast, a place where we can talk openly and honestly about addiction, sobriety and, strangely enough, beer. I'm Ben, I'm an alcoholic and for the last two years, I've been sampling some of the finest alcohol-free beers the world has to offer. Each week, I'll be joined by a different guest to discuss their own lived experiences on all things related to the world of low and no alcohol beverages. So pour yourself a tipple, relax and let me welcome you to the Sober Boozers Club. In today's episode, I talked to Andy Mee, who is the founder and owner of the Alcohol-Free Drinks Company. Now, the Alcohol-Free Drinks Company provide a range of excellent alcohol-free options to members of the public and to the industry, and we talk a little bit about that as well as kind of breaking down Andy's own sobriety journey. Now, it's well known that Andy can talk about beer forever, so I was really looking forward to this episode and just being able to talk all things industry-related. So let's go over to him right now. Andy, hello, how are you today?

Speaker 2: 1:08

Ben, I'm excellent, I'm really good, just recovering from a big trade show in Manchester last week and all of the fallout and follow up and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1: 1:17

I was going to say you've been a busy, busy man, from what I gather.

Speaker 2: 1:21

Yes, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:23

How was the trade show?

Speaker 2: 1:24

how did you find it excellent actually what was fantastic is when I did my first trade show. I started the company in july of 21 and I did my first trade show in march of 22, which was, um the same trade show northern restaurant and bar called nrmb. So I'm there as this naive guy who'd not been from the drinks industry you know really, um, very, very new to the whole thing and I'm stood there literally trying to pull people on my stand and the conversations. There would be a lot of people who would walk past. Um, I have a, I have a motivation and I will share this with you. Fairly early on, that happened at nrmb in 2022.

Speaker 2: 2:11

I was setting up and I won't say from the company, but they are a major drinks distributor in the uk obviously alcoholic drinks and these two guys in their matching polo shirts and their lanyard stood by the edge of my stand as I was putting it together on the Monday and one turned to the other and just said what's the fucking point in that? And, bizarrely, it actually created in me a sense of I'll tell you what, mate. I will show you what the fucking point in this is and it provides me because I'm fairly unique in what I do. I do have some b2c business, but my primary function is really trying to spread the word in the entree and promote a choice in venues where people go. You know you and I are so people. You and I both know that it's so frustrating that we go out and there's just nothing to drink and it's big alcohol companies, or you've got orange juice.

Speaker 1: 3:09

Quite often, yes, and exactly just it's yeah.

Speaker 2: 3:13

It makes you not want to go out anywhere, doesn't it exactly well, um, my wonderful friend janet hadley, um, she gave me this t-shirt at christmas and it says blue is not a choice. Yes, exactly and that's, that's kind of how I, um, how I feel about it, you know. And so, yeah, the show was fantastic because, two years from the very first one, I've actually just had streams and streams of people saying, oh my god, everybody's asking for it now. Yeah, so, um, so, yeah, it's it went well, have you seen a massive improvement?

Speaker 1: 3:48

or well, I say improvement, but um, have you seen more people be interested in what you're doing?

Speaker 2: 3:55

in very noticeable, would you say well, and and you know, from a from a business perspective, I've doubled my turnover every year and I've already achieved in the first six months of this financial year my financial year starts in August I've already achieved what I achieved in the whole of last year and I've got another. Well, now, another five and a half months to go. Yeah, yeah. And it's what's been interesting as well from my business perspective is people who would order one or two cases, and now ordering two or three cases, or you know, the breadth of range started to get bigger. Wonderful customers, wonderful customers. You know, I've got some fabulous customers who would, maybe a year or so ago, even even a year or so, but certainly when I started, um, focusing on the trade, they would take a beer and perhaps a cider and a bottle of gin alternative.

Speaker 2: 5:01

And now I'm seeing that people are starting to understand. I mean something, something you know very well with your wonderful alter ego that you have on the uh um, what people don't understand is the breadth of flavors in alcohol-free beer are as good as, if not, frankly, better than, the alcoholic world. Yeah, you've got, you've got. You know, one of our favourites being mashgang. I mean, you look at what Jordan produces there. They're not kids' drinks, they're not soft drinks, they are truly an adult flavour and you get such a breadth of flavours that actually challenge you. Sometimes you go well, actually, yeah, yeah, is that something that you're not used to it? I mean, I'm I'm sober three years now, so it is slightly different in a way to compare, but it's one of those where you go.

Speaker 1: 5:56

I'm constantly surprised by wow somebody's done this yeah, and the breadth of flavors that you kind of discover.

Speaker 1: 6:04

I'm drinking more beer now than I ever drank when I was a drinker and I've got into conversations myself with people where I kind of I will talk about beer and say to let's call him steve down the pub, yeah also. So you like beer, do you? And he goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, I like beer. And I say, oh, have you, have you tried any alcohol-free beers? Do you like them? No, no, no, no, don't like them. And it say, oh, have you, have you tried any alcohol-free beers? Do you like them? No, no, no, no, don't like them. And it's kind of you know well, you don't like beer. Then do you?

Speaker 1: 6:30

yeah, well, exactly you like alcohol, and that's fine. If you like alcohol, I mean, you know exactly but don't claim to be a beer fan if you don't enjoy alcohol-free beer, especially when so many of them are made in exactly the same way.

Speaker 2: 6:46

Absolutely Well. I keep saying to people, you know, when they say, oh, you know, you've stopped drinking, I say I haven't stopped drinking, I still drink beer. I was out with some wonderful friends over the weekend watching the rugby and we went to a pub and got into conversation with one of these guys and he was like, oh, so you've stopped drinking? No, I haven't stopped drinking at all. I drink some fantastic beer. I just happen to drink beer without alcohol. That's it. I have a little story for you. I went to a trade event at a very, very well-known theme park in this country, Okay, and I took the wonderful Holbeck Brewery 1571, and Jim's got a linden machine. So it enables me to promote draft beer, which is, frankly, the way forward. It's such a game changer.

Speaker 1: 7:37

You don't need to preach that to me, I'm already converted.

Speaker 2: 7:41

So I gave the head of bars for this particular theme park uh, he, he was helping me unload. I was doing this, this big exhibition, um, uh, and he helped me unload and he was like, oh, I don't really get it and I said look, let me just set up, um, and let me give you a pint.

Speaker 2: 8:00

and uh, so I poured him a pint of 1571 and he put it to his lips and he took it again and he put it down and he just went you're fucking with my head. And I said, oh, I hope in a good way. He said I can't believe this, I can't believe that this is an alcohol free beer. And I said well, probably because all you've ever all is the over-pasteurized blue label product.

Speaker 1: 8:29

Yes, straight from a bottle or a can in a lukewarm fridge. Yeah, exactly, and it tastes awful.

Speaker 2: 8:35

Yeah, whereas you know it is just, it is a game changer. My best performing pub is a wonderful pub up in hebden bridge called the fox and goose. Yeah, and I got a permanent tap in the fox and goose probably about 18 months ago and it would take normally about a month to get through a 30 liter keg. Um, and it is to be fair, it is their anniversary, their 10th anniversary, this coming weekend, but I just delivered three kegs off to them last friday. Wow, um, my local rugby club, the wonderful guys at weatherby rugby club. I was providing them with cans and bottles and in august of last year I managed to get on draft. They gave me a tap, I put jim's 1571 on and, again, it took about a month to get through the first one and the last delivery I had was two 50 liter kegs.

Speaker 1: 9:31

So that's 100 liters of alcohol-free beer on draft in a rugby club a month and that as well, and I don't mean to sound controversial, but you wouldn't stereotypically put a rugby club down as a place where you would sell an alcohol-free beer. You know, that's the kind of place that I'd go to with my dad and think I'm in for a Bex Blue here. You know, it's kind of what I've come to expect and to an extent I've had to accept that as just a part of life, but of course it doesn't have to be like that as no just proven well, I think as well.

Speaker 2: 10:09

What's what's happening? Um, I mean, I used to play sport. You wouldn't know it from my spelled figure now.

Speaker 2: 10:15

But you know, I used, I used to be uh I used to love a game of hockey, yeah, and you know the rite of passage. Probably, let's say, 40 years ago, 30, 40 years ago, you just got behind the wheel of a car and you just you know and I'm not proud of the times and I'm not seeking any form of forgiveness for it, but you know you'd go away games Right, the jugs would get poured round, you had no idea actually how much you were drinking. And now, much more consciousness it goes into it. Yeah, I, I have a big. I'm having a big push on golf clubs at the moment, because I always say to no one walks to a golf club.

Speaker 2: 10:57

So, forgetting anything to do with people like us, ben, who are on a journey, let's start calling out to drivers who are visiting rugby clubs. You know, for every sports game that happens at any sports ground in this country, be it football, be it cricket, be it rugby or hockey or whatever, there's an away team and the away team go home in a car. So call it out. Give people a brilliant choice of alcohol-free beer, get one tap. I mean in terms of the on cost for any venue, putting a keg of alcohol-free beer on says to them hey, we're being responsible. We know that a lot of you will drive, yeah and, and put a beer on. Put a beer on that they can drink you're right, because that's that's as well.

Speaker 1: 11:52

When it becomes a very serious matter, isn't it? When you know we're not just talking about your, your stereotypical alcoholics who will, you know, have a drink and get absolutely ruined every time they do? Um, when we, you know, address these people that you say traveling away, fans, etc. You know that's a dangerous situation, isn't it? Potentially, absolutely, you can really impact with alcohol-free beer. It's something that I've not really thought about, to be honest, is for well, I think the thing as well ben that.

Speaker 2: 12:24

That what happens. Um, if again we can break down these stereotypes and people can understand that these, these beers taste brilliantly, we will then see a further rise in flexi drinking. And to me, flexi drinking again a side of a side of people like us who are on a sober journey for whatever reason. Flexi-drinking is where the mass market will actually start to grow, and the more we encourage flexi-drinking, the more there will be choice, and the more choice there is, it benefits all of us, for whatever reason that we're not drinking alcohol. And the flexi-drinkers and they are very much in the younger end of the spectrum they will drive this. And if the drivers I went to a trade show last year up in Scotland and Scotland's drink drivers are much stricter than they are here in England and coined the phrase when I was talking to people about the spend per car so the spend per car to leisure and hospitality, and leisure and hospitality is under fire from so many different ways.

Speaker 2: 13:27

Yeah, and 509, 509 pubs closed in this country last year and 167 of those were demolished or turned into houses, so they will never come back. Um, so you got these, these pubs, these, these community hubs and places where people would socialise. And in Scotland what's happening is they coined or one guy coined the phrase to me look, there's only three Diet Cokes any driver will have, and they'll have one when they turn up. They'll have one as they're looking at the menu and one during the meal. And then what will happen is they'll be looking at their watch going come on, drink up, drink up. And that's again where the spend per car for a leisure and hospitality venue increases by the fact that they can offer something that the driver wants to drink. You know, it's not rocket science. And the the, the credit card of anybody who wants a beer, for whatever reason. That, without alcohol, is exactly the same as somebody wants a pint of stella.

Speaker 2: 14:33

Yeah when I I mentioned, I was out with a bunch of friends over the weekend and I made a point of having tap water in the curry house that we went to, because the only thing they got was heineken zero and and I that's not a choice when the alcohol drinkers amongst them they had choices of cobra, kingfisher, a couple of other non-indians, star lagers and you know a whole back bar.

Speaker 2: 14:59

Um, anything and for for me is, and I always walk into a venue and I say what's your choice of alcohol-free? And that's where the T-shirt came from, because you know, I always point the phrase that when you say what's your choice of alcohol-free and they come back and say Beck's Blue, I say that's not the question I asked you. I said what is your choice of alcohol for it? And I think all of these factors are really starting to come together and I mean I absolutely as you know, ben, you and I have had a chat a couple of times. I absolutely love what I do. I love championing the independent producers, because these are people who are really, really trying and really want to Passionate about what?

Speaker 1: 15:47

they do and craft beer as well, and craft beer that just so happens to be alcohol-free. Exactly that's the whole thing, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 15:54

And also meeting brewers, the like of Jim up at Colbath. He's got a full suite of alcoholic beers but his head brewer is as passionate about his non-alcoholic and he took nearly two years to get it right. And when you talk about where they've got, he's probably got about 12 or 14 different alcoholic beers but he's as passionate about his non-alcoholic. Another wonderful guy I deal with, his name's Boss and he owns Burton Road Brewery in Cheadle Manchester and Boss is the non and he actually gave me his first, the first canned lager at NRMB. Lovely, a lovely citrusy lager, you know, and Boss has worked really hard on that.

Speaker 2: 16:43

This isn't just a, you know, embossers work really hard on that. Yeah, this isn't just a. You know, a tick box exercise and that's where you see so many of the alcoholic brewers who are brewing the non-alcohol and it's not just a tick box exercise, it's it. But some of them they are. And I've been given some samples of stuff where, you know, I've had to politely go. Well, there's not quite a gap in my range for that at the moment and actually the truth of it is, frankly, you've done, yeah, it's not just you can tell, can't you when it's not?

Speaker 1: 17:12

um when, like you say, it's a tick box and you know I do understand in january companies releasing a non-alcohol beer because you know it's it's tough in hospitality at the moment and I understand that from a corporate sense but it doesn't mean I want to drink it exactly.

Speaker 2: 17:30

But what's also exciting is there's um, there's some stuff like northern monk have just um released their third hot porter, abydale brewery down in sheffield. They've now got three in their portfolio as well. So we're seeing the rise in in alcohol free, actually developing some different products within within beers and spirits too. But um, yeah, I think this is the thing.

Speaker 1: 17:56

it's becoming its whole, like adult drink, are becoming such an industry you know from, even from like companies, like liquid death. Um, it's, it's just like it's just water. It's just water, it's dash water for the working class it's brilliant.

Speaker 1: 18:15

But you know, I think the growth of the industry is just as, as we said earlier, it helps everyone, because options, more options, are only a good thing, whether you're sober or whether you're on antibiotics. I say this all the time on antibiotics, whether you're sober, whether you're the designated driver, the growth of the industry is only a good thing, and I feel like and I might be wrong here, I hope I'm not but I feel like we're only starting to scratch the surface. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 18:45

Yeah, and it's also venues properly embracing it. So one of the main things I struggle with is things like weddings or business meetings or you know balls or whatever, where you go in and they're stood there with a tray and it's a glass of fizz and you say I'm alcohol free. What have you got? We might be able to find you an orange juice, hold on a second. And I always say to venues look, it costs you next to nothing to stand there with two trays Glass of fizz alcoholic or non-alcoholic and at that point you've welcomed these people into your venue. You've given anybody, for whatever reason, these people into your venue. You've given anybody for whatever reason, and one of the main ones for for alcohol-free fizz is pregnant ladies who want that glass of fizz. There's a lot of ladies who don't want anybody to know in the first three or four months that they are actually pregnant very good and they like to take a glass of fizz.

Speaker 2: 19:41

Um, and you, you know you'll have had it. I've only ever done one wedding since being sober, you know, and toasting the bride with the orange juice of shame when you know there's the alcoholic over there.

Speaker 1: 19:57

You know it's not it's just, it may as well be in a brown bag, mightn't it, you know? Yeah, exactly yeah.

Speaker 2: 20:03

So yeah, more choice You're right.

Speaker 1: 20:06

It's something nice about going to a bar and ordering a low-life rather than saying can I have the alcohol-free beer, please? Yeah, because just uttering that sentence instantly for me is a little bit triggering, because it's kind of a it's a reminder of of what you are as an alcoholic um, and it's kind of like you know, I'm trying, I'm trying not to be, not to be that guy at the moment. I'm trying to just be out and not be reminded that you know or remember you can't drink alcohol because you've been a naughty boy and just seeing like I mean having Colt on tap from MASH Gang being like pint of Colt, please, yeah, it just feels great Because even brands like Lucky Saint, are associated with, you know, staying away from alcohol.

Speaker 1: 20:55

to an extent it's kind of the sober man's drink, lucky Saint.

Speaker 2: 20:59

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:00

So there's still almost that stigma with Lucky Saint. I mean it's ridiculous, isn't it really?

Speaker 2: 21:06

because it's just there's a lot of reasons. I don't stop lucky saint, and I I shan't, I shan't go into them, but there's a lot of reasons. But I think with um, with like, uh, you know, if any of your uh podcast listeners ever find themselves in harrigan, I, you know, implore you to go to jim's. Uh, jim's got a micro brewery and it's called the coal bath clubhouse, okay, and on the wall you've got all of all of his beers and 1571 is there. The same. It comes in a coal bath glass. It's exactly the same. There's no issues about it. Your, I love a pint of 1571 and you, you know, you've got a pint in your hand and you're socializing. Exactly the same way, there's no issues, and and so on. So yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:51

So in terms of obviously we touched upon lucky saying we won't go any further into that, but in terms of big alcohol, what more do you think that they can be doing? Or do you think that they can be doing? Or do you think that they should be doing more for their alcohol free, or would you like them to just stay the fuck away from it?

Speaker 2: 22:09

Yeah, frankly, a lot of it. I feel that, and why I'm actually so passionate about what I do. Okay, so I've been a social drinker all my life. Life. I've been in sales and marketing all my life and you know, to the best of my knowledge, no chairman of diageova stood behind me with my arm up my back trying to force a pint down me. Yeah, um, but I just feel like the way at which big drinks industry was allowed to go, frankly, unchecked, into pushing everything, and it really came to me in my first Christmas, my first sober Christmas, which was Christmas 21. And I kind of stepped back and went Jesus Christ, literally that was.

Speaker 2: 23:06

You know, Christmas was not about the drinks industry, it wasn't about I walked into my local Sainsbury's about three or four weeks before that Christmas, met with this wall of alcohol and every time and I don't really I mean there is a television behind me. As you can see, I don't really get much time to watch it, but to sit and watch commercial television or stuff, you know well, mainly stuff on commercial television and the plethora of advertising that went into it. And there was one. It was like for an Irish whiskey and it pushed the glass into the camera. You know I'm going wow, it's everywhere, isn't it? It's everywhere. And that's where I hope, I hope. Hope is not a strategy, but hope is probably more, more the word that actually people understand.

Speaker 2: 24:08

Big drinks is big drinks and you know I I've never been a a conspiracy theorist kind of person, but uh, and it's quite a big. But any government, government around the world and I won't go into UK politics specifically, but any government around the world tolerates a carcinogenic, poisonous substance in alcohol that classified by the World Health Authority is exactly the same as asbestos in ethanol. And they, totally they allow alcohol. I mean, the budget happened last week and it was this big thing. The chancellor has not increased alcohol duty. Oh my god, what a hero yeah, you know it's like what the actual fuck?

Speaker 2: 25:01

Because drinks are seen as a reward. They're seen as a. I stopped listening to Radio 2 when I gave up drinking alcohol because I just got so fed up with this whole thing, particularly on a Friday night, of the DJs talking about. You know, take the cork out of a bottle of something, or you survive the week, or whatever, whatever, whatever.

Speaker 2: 25:28

Yeah, yeah, reward yourself, treat yourself, reward yourself with a drink. Yeah, and that is all predicated by big drinks. And big drinks have not only produced this massive, massive machine, vehicle, call it what you will that pushes itself onto people and has created a society where, if you don't drink alcohol, you're seen as weird.

Speaker 1: 25:57

Yeah. Whereas you and I both no other drug would it.

Speaker 2: 26:01

No, no, no. And you know, I smoked for about I don't know 30-odd years of my life. Yeah, and when I gave up, no one stood there with a pack of Marlboro to stop pulling in my face. But you got that, you know as well. You get that hardcore and you can have one. Yeah, what's the matter with you?

Speaker 1: 26:24

Can you not just have? You can't control it and it's so dangerous, isn't it? Because then you start thinking you know, I this is how I know I'm an alcoholic for example is that I truly feel like I could probably have a pint now and not go back to it. But that feeling of yeah, that kind of that confidence that I have in myself to be able to have a pint and never want to drink alcohol again afterwards, shows me that I can't have a pint because I've already tricked myself into having one.

Speaker 1: 26:45

I've already done it mentally, which is exactly why I never can.

Speaker 2: 26:49

Exactly. But also as well, and I said to a close friend of mine who asked the questions of me and I said but fundamentally today I don't want the word want is actually quite a strong word in this instance I don't want a pint with alcohol in it. I don't need a pint with alcohol in it. I can have, fundamentally, the. The pub that we were in on Saturday to watch all of the rugby. They had about four different beers plus Guinness zero. I was kind of fine with that. You know that that was okay. Had they had about four different beers plus Guinness Zero, I was kind of fine with that. You know that was okay. Had they had one on draft, I'd have had a bit more. And it's that word want.

Speaker 2: 27:34

I've got to a point where and I think everybody does in their sobriety journey, however long that may be, they get to a point where they can recognise exactly what you've just said there, ben. Yeah, I think I probably could. But I kind of got to that point and I went. But fundamentally I don't want to. You don't want to.

Speaker 1: 27:57

Yeah, you become somebody that just doesn't drink, don't you? You're not somebody that's trying not to drink anymore. It's exactly yeah, but you're not trying to avoid alcohol. You just don't drink Exactly and I go literally and I go to pubs.

Speaker 2: 28:17

I sat in a pub from one o'clock in the afternoon until after the england game on saturday. Yeah, I'm not trying to avoid it, I just don't want to do it. James corden, um, famously, has just become has just gone sober. Yeah, when I saw his interview he was saying about he used to borrow forward hours when he was drinking and it was almost like he would borrow forward a few hours to have a few punts.

Speaker 2: 28:39

Yeah, when he gave up was when he realized he was borrowing a whole day. Yeah, and he was. He was going out on a night and it was quite a bender and he would borrow forward that whole day to literally sit on the sofa and do nothing. And that when you I think as well and I might be a little bit controversial with this one, ben, and excuse me if it triggers some of your listeners We've been told as alcoholics or recovering alcoholics or whatever, we've been downtrodden and we're. You know you've been bad and you said it yourself a moment. You've been downtrodden and we're you know you've been bad and you you said it yourself a moment. You've been bad, you know. Look at what you've done, all this kind of stuff and you know I'm I'm now divorced, I have two children who sadly, hardly have much to do with me, and and all of that, and I am not proud of the person I was in 2020 yeah however, I'm not a bad person.

Speaker 2: 29:37

I'm actually somebody who can now sit in my own skin and go. I'm quite proud of myself, yeah, and I've, I've stopped and I've stopped and I don't want to go forward and it it's the, the. It's almost like the constant lambasting of somebody who you know and I'm not saying I've never, I've never done AA and I've not done the steps and all that kind of stuff but the living in the path of and I saw a documentary on it and there was a fellow there who'd been 30 years in recovery and he still went to every week and and that's that's cool, that's great, he gets the support. Yeah, but I thought you're talking about a person who doesn't exist and doesn't and hasn't existed for 30 years. You know, I, I used to hide wine bottles. I used to take the empties and put them in the spare wheel section of the car so I could take them to the bottle bank and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2: 30:40

A deceitful person? Yeah, and I'll call it out. I was deceitful and I was angry. I was an angry shit who used to shout and, um, my daughter explained it that my tell was the door handle.

Speaker 2: 30:57

You know, if I was in a bad, maybe it was a you know I'd go through the door and all that, and particularly, you know, lockdown. Myself and my ex-wife owned a chain of indoor soft play centres and we obviously were shut down during lockdown and that kind of stuff and that's where it really affected me. But I'm not that person anymore and I'm a very, very different person and I I have a different outlook on life. Um, I think that the, the joy of sobriety should be celebrated, not lambasted, and it's where Hannah's wonderful Sober Butterfly Collective just comes into its own the ability to find people who you can chat to at any time, who just have been there, and it's not judgmental.

Speaker 1: 31:51

Nobody will understand it unless they've done it. I mean, people can sympathize, and the people that are closest to you can sympathize, but no one will understand what it is like unless you've done it. And you're right, I think the most important thing is to forgive yourself and that's not to take away any accountability.

Speaker 1: 32:12

No, no, no, it's a difficult thing, isn't it? Because I had the same. You know, like I can joke about it now, because if I didn't, I cry. And you know, I was awful, I was a shit, but I always felt, and I inherently I felt like I wasn't a bad person. Yeah then, why did I keep acting like a bad person and why did it keep happening? And then, by eliminating the alcohol, I can say to myself now you know, I'm not a bad person. I mean, sometimes I do bad things, you know, but so does everybody.

Speaker 2: 32:48

Yes, exactly, I drove the wrong way round about today, but you're absolutely right and actually, ben, that's a very, it's a very telling statement you just made and you're right. And for anybody who is listening to your podcast, forgive yourself, I can't change it. And the one mantra that I absolutely love about aa is one day at a time. Today, I will not drink, and I believe that as a mantra is magic, because I can't do anything about, particularly, you know, the second half of 2020, I just wasn't a great person to live with and and and I I don't seek forgiveness for that, I, you know, but today, um, you know, I'm just a very different person and I am proud of it and I have forgiven myself and I turned three years sober. What are we today? I turned three years sober 12 days ago Amazing. And three years sober, it's like like wow it makes such a difference, doesn't it?

Speaker 1: 33:59

yeah, yeah, yeah, well I'm just.

Speaker 2: 34:01

I turned 61 last year, so for mental arithmetic let's say that's five percent of my life. If you think about my adult life, it's a a larger percentage. And if you'd have said to me at any point prior to that, you know you, you'll spend, I I mean, let's hope. Let's hope I'm around for another 20 plus years. Yeah, and if I can lie on my deathbed and go, do you know what? Actually I spent a third half of my life sober. I'll be bloody proud of myself yeah, that's.

Speaker 1: 34:38

It's important to celebrate the little wins. Like you know, I've I've kind of I've been quite open in in how sobriety isn't all you know sunshine and rainbows, and it's not all you know you don't wake up with clear skin and want to go to the gym and want to do all of this, but but no, you get addicted to chocolate, bloody biscuits and what happens?

Speaker 2: 34:55

and you do. I'm heavier now than I was when I used to drink I mean it's belgian buns.

Speaker 1: 35:00

I can't, I can't go a day without a belgian oh yeah, it's when I get home from work and if I don't have any, the kind of dread sets in like you know, you know when you didn't have any beer in. That's what happens to me. If I don't have belgian buns in the cupboard, I start to yeah, and I get the shakes and all sorts. So I know, if I went to a doctor now, it would be you need to cut down on sugar, and then it would be coffee, and then it would be one thing after another. That's what sobriety is just realizing that gradually, anything fun in your life gets taken away from you well it.

Speaker 2: 35:33

Sadly we have an addictive nature. I mean, thank god I never got into gambling because I would.

Speaker 1: 35:39

I would be in real trouble into that a little bit um, but I got really into the um, into the fruit machines. And I got into the fruit machines because when I went to the pub on my own if nobody was free, I didn't want to be stood at the bar looking like, ironically, an alcoholic. Um, so then I remember the day I literally I gave my parents my bank cards. I said I need you to look after this because otherwise I'm going to keep taking money out yeah so I was always very aware of it.

Speaker 1: 36:09

I just it was, I was just reluctant because I was, I was unhappy, I suppose but then, ben, that goes back to the societal pressure.

Speaker 2: 36:16

Your societal pressure of that environment was that you should be drinking, you should be social. Now, what I think is exciting, and and and I'll I'll give you kind of my vision of where things will go in the future that was my next question.

Speaker 2: 36:32

That's outrageous hey, um, we. So I I talk about the 50 50 concept. And the 50 50 concept is a place and we'll call it a pub, but it's it's more of a proper kind of community hub. And the 50 50 concept is it will have a range of things to drink and the range will be roughly 50% alcoholic and 50% non-alcoholic. And the 50% that's non-alcoholic isn't necessarily just the fantastic stuff that I sell. It will be things like kombucha on draft, it will be bubble tea. It will be an environment where there's a brilliant coffee machine and a good barista. There's a brilliant coffee machine and a good barista. It'll be I've got two customers who are vinyl record shops as well as one is a truly alcohol-free bar in Camden Market and there'll be experiential retail and it'll be a bit of tasting and it'll be like Kevin does at the Functional Drinks Club and he does kimchi making as well of an evening and it'll just be a place to go and chill out with friends and if you want to have a pint of Stella, you can have a pint of Stella. But if you actually want a decent pint of 1571 or Guinness or Zero or whatever, whatever, there's no pressure on you to have to do that and these things will. These venues will have more things that will stop you having to go to the fruit machine and spend half your money on on the turn of a wheel.

Speaker 2: 38:15

There will be places where people will just go and socialise, and I bloody well hope they will, because the flip side of it is this insular nature which humans are becoming doing. You know all the social media stuff and people not actually interacting. And look at any bus that goes past you on the street everybody's got headphones on, all got their head down. You know, and and people are just not socializing. And I think there will be this movement towards these. I'd like to think of them as like community places. They'll probably still be pub, like um, and they'll do some food and they'll also do a selection of food through vegan and gluten free and, but there just won't be an issue about it.

Speaker 2: 39:10

People too many times there's too many labels on things, but they're just going to be really kind of chilled out, relaxed places where people will go and that I believe to be the future. And I know um. There are a number of alcohol-free bars and they're great and they and they. You know what I I support. I sell into a few of them, but longer term. To me, the establishment that says we're totally over here is almost elitist the other way, yeah, yeah, I can see that it's just we.

Speaker 1: 39:43

Just we want, like you say, community spaces. Or you know, like I want to be able to go to a boozer, for example. Yeah, I want to go to a proper boozer, and and just not be weird if I don't drink yeah, some people might, you know, like you say, want to go to a proper boozer, and just not be weird if I don't drink. Some people might, like you say, want to go to their nice jazz bars. I think it's options, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 40:05

It's options Exactly Well. I have a great customer in Manchester called the Frog and Bucket Comedy Club and they put on a fabulous range of alcohol-free now and they give a great choice for anybody who doesn't want to imbibe alcohol. They're going for the comedy. That's why they're there.

Speaker 1: 40:22

They're not going to get pissed.

Speaker 2: 40:25

And you know, I'm proud of the fact that until I went in, they really didn't have any alcohol free at all. They literally had one blue label product. And now they have um rtd cocktails, they have some the wines, they have some of the uh, a good selection of the beers, you know, and it's just great to know that people don't, they're not pressured there they can have whatever they want.

Speaker 1: 40:51

it's nice on an individual level as well, um, and I certainly don't get it often, but I get it occasionally where people will reach out and say you know, what you do has really helped me, and I mean, certainly what you're doing has bloody helped a lot of people. You know, like, there's places that I probably keep in business because they sell a good alcohol free option. A good alcohol-free option, yeah, so if you, if you think of all of the places that you work with, it's yeah, you know, it's, it's it's an amazing thing, it really is yeah, and, and I and I started my company when I was 58 years old, um, and I'm now 61 and I absolutely love it.

Speaker 2: 41:32

I wish I was your age, I wish I could go back to do it now because, um, I honestly believe and go back to your question earlier about big drinks they will continue to drive most of the venues in this country into their own label product because they own the distribution channel. Um, what a lot of people don't know is that most of the pubs are supplied by, uh, matthew clark. Um, matthew clark is owned by a company called cnc, and cnc is owned by diageo, so you can pretty much guess which of the products that they will be pushing, um, and so that's where you know. My, my goal was to set up an independent channel for independent producers or people who were producing their one-on-one elk into the market. So, yeah, and I love it and I love talking about it.

Speaker 2: 42:27

I will bore the arse off anybody who chooses to the WhatsApp group for my friends on Saturday was things to talk to Andy about after you've had five pints, because they, they the constant thing that I will. I will not backwards in coming forwards in telling them what I think, yeah, but I just, I just love it and I and I, if we can release the stigma, if we can stop sober shaming and increase choice, I genuinely believe that society will be a better place.

Speaker 1: 42:58

Andy, thank you very much for coming and talking to me. Thank you very much for everything that you're doing for the industry, and long may it continue.

Speaker 2: 43:06

Oh, thank you, Ben, and you too, man, I mean just really great.

Speaker 1: 43:10

Thank you for listening to this week's episode of Sober Boozers Club podcast. My name is Ben Gibbs. You can find me on the Instagram at Sober Boozers Club. You can find Andy at Alcohol Free Drinks Company, and really do check that out, because they do some amazing beers from independent breweries and that's what we like to see. So go and treat yourself, enjoy yourself, and thank you again very much for listening. I'll be back with you very, very soon, but for now, don't get a bloody beer. You've earned it Alcohol-free, of course.