Ever wondered if a staunch traditional beer enthusiast could pivot to championing alcohol-free brews? Join us as we welcome James Beard award-winning writer and Sunday Brunch's renowned beer expert Mark Dredge, who shares his fascinating journey from the world of traditional beers to becoming a passionate advocate for alcohol-free options. Mark enthusiastically showcases standout examples like "We Could Be Friends," Mash Gang, Fierce, and Williams Brothers, illuminating how the quality and variety of these beers have improved remarkably. His insights provide a fresh perspective on enjoying the beer experience without the downsides of alcohol.
Throughout our conversation, you'll hear about the cultural significance of beer and how local customs enhance travel experiences. From initial beer disdain to a university-era craft beer awakening, the journey takes us through niche pubs in London and a developing palate for sweeter stouts and dark milds. Mark's narrative also touches on the universal yet unique nature of beer across various regions, making it a truly enriching global experience. Whether you're sharing a pint in Bavaria, Brussels, or somewhere else, beer often serves as a cultural bridge, connecting people in unexpected ways.
We turn our focus to the increasing acceptance of alcohol-free beer, especially in vibrant places like Seville, Spain. Mark and I discuss the importance of balancing alcohol consumption, particularly for those in drinking-centric industries, and the comfort found in savoring these non-alcoholic options. From the evolving landscape of alcohol-free beer to the critical role of media in its promotion, this episode offers valuable insights and reflections on the changing beer culture. Tune in for an inspiring look at the future of alcohol-free brews and the exciting innovations driving this industry forward.
To learn more about Mark, head over to https://www.beerdredge.com
To find out more about the wonderful world of AF/NA Beer and to check in with me head to www.instagram.com/sober_boozers_club
This episode is not brought to you by any sponsors because nobody wants to sponsor me.
Ever wondered if a staunch traditional beer enthusiast could pivot to championing alcohol-free brews? Join us as we welcome James Beard award-winning writer and Sunday Brunch's renowned beer expert Mark Dredge, who shares his fascinating journey from the world of traditional beers to becoming a passionate advocate for alcohol-free options. Mark enthusiastically showcases standout examples like "We Could Be Friends," Mash Gang, Fierce, and Williams Brothers, illuminating how the quality and variety of these beers have improved remarkably. His insights provide a fresh perspective on enjoying the beer experience without the downsides of alcohol.
Throughout our conversation, you'll hear about the cultural significance of beer and how local customs enhance travel experiences. From initial beer disdain to a university-era craft beer awakening, the journey takes us through niche pubs in London and a developing palate for sweeter stouts and dark milds. Mark's narrative also touches on the universal yet unique nature of beer across various regions, making it a truly enriching global experience. Whether you're sharing a pint in Bavaria, Brussels, or somewhere else, beer often serves as a cultural bridge, connecting people in unexpected ways.
We turn our focus to the increasing acceptance of alcohol-free beer, especially in vibrant places like Seville, Spain. Mark and I discuss the importance of balancing alcohol consumption, particularly for those in drinking-centric industries, and the comfort found in savoring these non-alcoholic options. From the evolving landscape of alcohol-free beer to the critical role of media in its promotion, this episode offers valuable insights and reflections on the changing beer culture. Tune in for an inspiring look at the future of alcohol-free brews and the exciting innovations driving this industry forward.
To learn more about Mark, head over to https://www.beerdredge.com
To find out more about the wonderful world of AF/NA Beer and to check in with me head to www.instagram.com/sober_boozers_club
This episode is not brought to you by any sponsors because nobody wants to sponsor me.
Welcome to the Sober Boozers Club podcast, a place where we can talk openly and honestly about addiction, sobriety and, strangely enough, beer. I'm Ben, I'm an alcoholic and for the last two years, I've been sampling some of the finest alcohol-free beers the world has to offer. Each week, I'll be joined by a different guest to discuss their own lived experiences on all things related to the world of low and no alcohol beverages. So pour yourself a tipple, relax and let me welcome you to the Sober Boozers Club.
Speaker 1:In today's episode, I'm joined by someone who, quite frankly, I can't believe has agreed to be on this podcast. He is a James Beard award-winning writer, the author of nine beer books, a beer expert on Channel 4's Sunday Brunch and the developer of the Beer Dredge beer Flavour Wheels. Did I give it away? It's Mark Dredge, and I really do think it's a significant moment when somebody such as Mark agrees to come on to a podcast related to alcohol-free beers. So it's my absolute pleasure to introduce you to this episode and I really hope you enjoy it, mark. Hello, and thank you very much for coming on to talk to me. It's possibly something that wouldn't have happened five or six years ago, as a beer expert coming on to a sobriety and beer podcast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would have just said no. To be honest with you, I think, one, I'm going to mess this up and I'm going to say things which I probably shouldn't say. And two, I would have just said no, to be honest with you, I'd be like, well, I think, one, I'm going to mess this up and I'm going to say things which I probably shouldn't say. And two, I have no experience with anything alcohol-free, because I am 100% in on just drinking as much beer as I can, and maybe that's because the choices were terrible and there was no option. I don't think it ever crossed my mind to go into a pub or anywhere and, if I didn't want alcohol, to have an alcohol-free beer. But I think that is significantly different now. So, yeah, it's a. It's a topic that I am becoming more and more passionate about, and I'm more and more excited about alcohol-free beer than I am about any other part of the beer world at the moment.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's a bold statement because it literally is your career.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so maybe I'm shooting myself in the foot there and kind of pushing myself into a corner, but I think it's my career. But you know, it's also a significant part of my life is, um, not beer and it's all the stuff around beer. And while I might spend eight hours a day writing about beer, thinking about beer, talking about beer, I've come to realize that the alcohol side of it is something that I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't want the effects of yeah and I'm seeing increasingly and feeling increasingly the negatives of that and I don't enjoy that, whereas I have yet to find a negative with the with drinking four cans of alcohol-free beer in one night and I'm just really excited that generally this week I've had two boxes of new alcohol-free beers arrive. I just looked in my fridge a second ago before we came on to talk, and I've already got 15 different beers in there. So I was like, oh, which one am I going to pick?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's's exciting, isn't it? There's so many more kind of breweries popping up as well out of nowhere. I don't know if you've seen we could be friends at all. Um, that was just wild. Um, that beer I didn't expect anything from and it was amazing. Um, and you've got breweries. Obviously, mash gang are kind of shitting out a beer every other day, it seems, and it's just, it's outrageous the amount of beers that are being released. I'm obsessed with it.
Speaker 2:And I love it and I love seeing all these new ones and I, you know, being in the position that I am in, you know, having national columns and having, you know, a slot on tv where I get to talk about beer, it's it's often I get asked if people can send me beer and I would say 90 of the time I say no because I just don't want it and it's going to get, it's going to be wasted, and I would rather not have something or spend my own money if I want it and go and buy it and be sent 12 cans of something and it sits in my house, doesn't get drunk and then I end up throwing away.
Speaker 2:I don't want to be wasteful but I never say no to alcohol free beer because that will not get wasted in my house. You know I get through all of this and I want to try all the new ones, like the couple of boxes I said that arrived this week was from um fierce from um fierce so in aberdeen. So obviously they know what they're doing. They brew mashgangs beers, so they have three different alcohol-free beers in there um and williams brothers as well. Yeah, alcohol-free beer range. Um got wiper and trues as well, recently, very nice, you know, just filling out my fridge and yeah, we can be friends is really good as well.
Speaker 1:had that recently yeah, yeah, it's, it was. It's amazing stuff and I really I didn't think that. I mean, I've spoken to sam about this and said, when you sent me the beer, I thought it was going to be middle of the road at best. Um, because it came from nowhere. Um, obviously, now, knowing more about sam's story, um, that's for another episode. It makes lot more sense, but it was really exciting to get a beer sent to me. That was just really really good and I'd never heard of before. And it seems to be happening. As I say, every other week there's a brand new beer just appearing, or a brewery that you wouldn't expect to do an alcohol-free beer Suddenly do one, and it's good.
Speaker 2:It's a good time to not be drinking alcohol if you're a beer drinker it's a good time to um to not be drinking alcohol if you're a beer drinker, yeah, and I think it's a message that I'd like to get across more often and the more times I do talks and tastings, I always talk about alcohol-free beer. Now, and I've genuinely seen a change in the people that I'm talking to in that if I'd have said this maybe three years ago, there would be jokes or people would be like I'm not drinking that or I'd rather, you know, have a. You know, you just, you just hear nonsense about people talking exactly like why would I bother drinking that? What's the point? But now I think there's there's been this kind of mentality shift that means that it's okay now to choose these drinks. Um, and I think brands like guinness zero have done a great job with it beer, alcohol-free, beer, bin on draft has done a great job with it, particularly and this is something that I've got from jordan at mash gang. Um, but he's talking about like alibi brands, but then also more than that, actually alibi brands is probably the wrong way of talking about it, cause he means that in a in a different ways. It's more about anonymity.
Speaker 2:Okay, so that you know we could both sit there with a beer that says Guinness zero. Just that's the one that came to my head. It looks just like Guinness. It could come in a Guinness glass. No one came to my head. It looks just like Guinness. It could come in a Guinness glass. No one needs to know we've both got the same beer. No one needs to know that we're on the zeros. Everyone else is on the the regular stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if we wanted to like and that's significant, I think and but if we wanted to say, hey, I'm drinking Guinness zero, then Guinness or you know whatever alcohol free brand like brilliant, thank you, you know, thank you for sharing that, thank you for supporting what we're doing. But, equally, you can have that anonymity if you want it, and that's one thing that I think MASH gang do so well is that they celebrate that anonymity and they're like you know. If, however, you want to talk or think about this beer, you know that's for you to, for you to decide, and that's your approach and that is you know we're not going to say, you know we're not going to shame you in any way for the way that you want to behave around this massively because it does make a massive difference.
Speaker 1:As someone myself who is sober because I have to be sober going and ordering an anxiety saint or going and ordering a stoop or going and ordering a crystal ammunition feels a lot nicer than going to a bar and saying do you have any alcohol free options? And what are they? Because that's just immediately that puts me off, especially in the the early days of sobriety. It was a real trigger for me. Going to a bar and asking to, kind of it was like going to see, like the naughty selection of drinks. Well, that's how it felt in my brain and it was very clinical and just. It just didn't interest me, it didn't give me the pub experience. Whereas all of these beers that exist now with, like the branding and, like you say, it looks the same, a lot of it tastes very, very similar, if not the same yeah, and you know, it means we can fit in, doesn't?
Speaker 2:it means that whatever we're drinking and we can choose how we approach it, you know, but whatever we're drinking, it means that we're still part of that part of that round, we're still part of that conversation, we're still part of that pub experience, you know. Say, there's five of us in a pub. I don't want to have, I don't want alcohol, but everyone else is having pints. If I have a Diet Coke, it's very obvious that I'm not drinking. I stand out because I'm not having a beer. Whereas if I've got a glass of a pint of alcohol-free, whatever I look the same, I still fit in that situation. No one needs to know that I'm not drinking alcohol, apart from me, and that is important, and I choose to drink less alcohol. So for me, that's just a personal preference, um, but I still don't want to feel like I'm somehow being shamed if I'm not doing that. Um, I don't want to be left out because of that, you know. So that involvement, that's, you know.
Speaker 2:I think that for me, is the significance, maybe the singular significance of beer is how it brings people together, and it does it in a way that no other drink does anywhere in the world. It's a really different experience to get together and just share pints. You know it's very different to doing it over tea or over coffee or over champagne. They all have this different social connotations and social connections. It doesn't need to be because of the alcohol, does it? It's that the way that it feels that habitual nature of being able to share something and being able to talk and relax around this kind of almost arbitrary object that's a pint in size and you know, we know how it looks, we know how it feels and it kind of refreshes us in different ways yeah, it's, it's, it's the ritual of it, isn't it?
Speaker 1:it's the whole? Well, it's, it's a big part of our culture. So, in terms of beer, what started it for you? What was your journey into the world of beer?
Speaker 2:So I it's an interesting one because it's not necessarily. Well, no, I guess it's interesting because it's embarrassing, okay, okay. Well, now I'm extra interested then. So I didn't really drink beer, I didn't really like beer, I remember. But at the same time, when I was, say, say, 18, I was the kid that wanted to be different. So I had lots of piercings, I wanted to get tattoos, I had all sorts of crazy hair cuts and styles, so I didn't want to drink what everyone else was drinking.
Speaker 2:So I remember specifically one day going to just like a like a social club for my mate's, dad's work and ordered a pint of ruddles, a pint of ale of the hand pump, okay, and it was the most disgusting thing I'd ever tasted. It was this it was completely sour, it was just vinegar like horrendous um. So I didn't really persevere with that. We used to go then drinking in this rock club near where I grew up and it was called the tap and tin, and one day we saw this really hot girl who had a belt and her belt was just covered in Nuki Brown bottle caps, right. So from then on my mate and I only drank Nuki Brown for obvious reasons.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I liked that, that was fun, but I didn't go to university as a beer drinker. I went to university as a malibu and coke drinker. So I was at university drinking malibus and cokes and the guy in the room next to me liked beer, and I think when there's one in your group who has a particular interest in beer, they're more likely to guide you to pubs which have better beer. Yeah, and this was 20 years ago, so this was not like. We do not have this, did not have the selection of beers that we have now the real craft revolution kind of kicked off exactly very much so, and we had some local cascades.
Speaker 2:We're into university but there was no real choice. We I was in outside it was kind of near windsor, the university I went to that's called royal holloway, um, but we could travel into london and if we traveled into london at that point there were basically two places we could go for craft beer. So we were going to that. One was the rake, which is still there, and one was the white horse in parson screen, which is a fairly famous pub for, or was for for, its beer.
Speaker 2:So because my mate guided us to these pubs and around, I wouldn't go there and then order a malibu and coke. I would go there and suffer through pints of pale alz and ipas and things and I realized I actually I had a sweeter palette for beer, which is unusual because I don't really have a sweet palette for anything else. Um, but I would like dark milds, I would like sweeter stouts, and it just evolved from there, I think, just by drinking so frequently, but almost always in a tasting capacity like sure, we, I mean we always drank too much, but we drank too much by drinking mouthfuls of every beer that we could possibly yeah, yeah good thanks and guilty of that in uh in amsterdam a few times.
Speaker 1:Um, oh, what's the name?
Speaker 2:golem cafe, golem oh yeah yeah, good stuff so, yeah, just just drinking, just the curiosity of drinking everything I possibly could, um, the jump, I suppose, to how it became a career is that I thought I might like to be a writer. Well, I might try writing, um, and by the time I was at that point of making that decision I didn't really know much about anything or which direction or which things I might want to write about, but I knew that I quite liked the taste of beer. So I just decided to start writing things about that um, and yeah, it just, it just progressed out of, out of that kind of love of flavor. So for me it was an interesting flavor that first got me, and the first sort of hooked me into the um, wanting to try different things. And then the more I tried and the more it became part of my career or my, I suppose, my life first before career, the more I started to travel and the more I started to feel more of that social importance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know the there's a universality to having a beer yes, massively but the context of it changes and you know wherever you are in the world you could have the same conversations over a beer. It'd be in completely different languages and things and different contexts, but there's a universality to it, but there's also a uniqueness wherever you go. So if you're drinking in Bavaria, the drinking experience there is going to be different to Brussels, or at least the flavour experience there is going to be different to brussels, or at least the, the flavor experience and the way that you approach it and the, the look and the smell and the feel of the bars and the way that you're served and the way that the glasses arrive and the way that they're kind of cleared and you pay, and I kind of. I loved all these intricacies of service and of experience and of just trying local beers where they're from.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, yeah, having just having those local experiences yeah, yeah, massively like going back to the culture kind of thing you know you take in the culture of whatever location you're, you're at, based on their drinking habits. Um, and I think it is interesting. Like you know, there's we used to go to greece a lot and I wouldn't drink fix in this country because it doesn't taste very good in this country, yeah, but in greece it's just like this is. This is amazing. This hits the spot and I love that.
Speaker 2:I love that. It doesn't necessarily matter the perceived quality of the beer. What matters is where you are and when.
Speaker 1:Yes, Suppose you can take that with alcohol-free beer, because if you're not judging a beer based on the environment around you, not necessarily the involvement of alcohol.
Speaker 2:No, I know exactly what you mean. I was in Se, seville, uh, in january, and spain is amazing for alcohol-free beer. Okay, the varieties that they have are great, but actually the availability of it is amazing, and that's good to know. So, and seville was brilliant for it. You know, I would often go into a bar and actually, before I realized what it was, I would walk past and be like, oh, they've got three taps from, uh, I can't remember which brewery it was. Anyway, they've got three taps in this brewery and I've not had that one over there which is called sin S I N, I want to have that one.
Speaker 2:So the next time I went into a bar that had but then there were other bars that had two alcohol-free beers on tap and they only really had four taps anyway, and they've got an amber one, so like a toasted one. So they had this toasted lager and they had the regular lager, but it was everywhere and I drank so much alcohol-free beer while I was there, and actually I I haven't wanted to drink that much beer this year because I'm training for a marathon, yes, doing lots of different work. Just, I just just been wary of my alcohol intake and my girlfriend booked me this trip as a as a surprise, and I was like amazing, and the first thing I did which is complete habit she told me I think she hadn't even finished telling me where we were going and I was already googling craft beer bars, seville, just because that's like the first thing I would ever do, going somewhere and then I was like oh man, do I, do I want to drink?
Speaker 2:I started having these almost like anxious thoughts about you know.
Speaker 2:Do I actually want to go and drink, like I perhaps would have done a few years ago, in which case I would have, you know, been having beers throughout the day and I would have been chasing to go to this bar and that bar to try and find this brewery and have that and then have the local lager here and trying to find the coldest beer I possibly could over there. And I realized actually that that shrub, that thought worried me a little bit. I had this slight anxiety about that experience. So then, when I got there and realized how much alcohol-free beer that was, I discovered that I could have the exact same experiences that I had been so familiar with. Just the beer in my glass didn't have the alcohol in it and I was really comforted by that because it didn't then feel like this holiday had changed. It was, it was this. This weekend away is the same as it maybe always was. I'm just going to remember more of it and I'm going to get a bit more out of this actual experience.
Speaker 1:You can see, I think, how the industry that you're in can be quite dangerous for some people, potentially. Like you say, you're feeling like maybe it's getting. I don't really want to drink this much, but it's what you do.
Speaker 2:So I think it's nice that there's the option to continue to work but without having to consume alcohol yeah, and and that's you know, that's important, you know, for me especially and I realized that I I mean, yes, some of my work is describing flavor and talking specifically about literally having to drink something and describe it, and I'm aware that that's part of what my job is.
Speaker 1:That's just, yes, just what I do yeah, that's the nature of not everyone that drinks beer is an alcoholic. That's something that I remind a lot of alcoholics, you know it's exactly, and I'm lucky that I've never, never, needed alcohol.
Speaker 2:I've always known when I uh need time off and I'm always very good at saying no. There have been lots of periods in my life when I have drunk excessively for long periods of time, maybe under the veil of research, for books or whatever it may be. Yeah, yeah, um, but I always know that I have my body basically rejects it. At some point I get to a point where my body is just like nope, absolutely not, no more, we're not doing this. And for another day, um. So yeah, I'm kind of kind of always aware of um. I've always been good at stopping, but with my work I've found in recent years that I've I've just wanted to write more stories about the people and much more of my work, aside from sort of having this taste in will business, which is helping people ultimately communicate about beer, not necessarily guzzle down loads of it that the stuff that I'm most interested in are is the people.
Speaker 1:It's sort of what we do and why and why it can have significance beyond maybe just the drink, the drunk experience, let's say yeah, I was talking to someone very recently about something quite similar to that, really, and they said something that really has stuck with me, and that was that you should enjoy your alcohol more but enjoy less alcohol. And that made me think about my levels of alcohol consumption and how I was enjoying my alcohol to begin with, and then I was enjoying the volume of alcohol rather than the experience. It's. I think it's preaching moderation to an alcoholic, which is really difficult to for me to grasp, because for me I could never have, you know, one pint. It was always. There's no point in having one pint, but with alcohol free I can have one pint and go oh, that was really tasty, but I don't need any more liquid yeah, that's really interesting, that.
Speaker 2:What, what do you think made that shift happen in that you could, you couldn't have had one pint of alcohol, but then you can have one pint of alcohol free. Is it? Is it the ethanol? Is it purely that reaction? Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 1:I don't think I necessarily liked beer that much, I think I just liked being drunk, whereas now I'm learning what beers I like. I'm learning so much about my palate, um, and I'm by no means an expert, nor would I ever claim to be, but I'm learning more about the industry and about the different types of beers that are available, and it's kind of okay. I like beer now, and when you like something you don't need to have it all the time it's, it's a treat, isn't it? Yeah, and I something you don't need to have it all the time it's it's a treat, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, and I think it's important to to see it that way.
Speaker 2:You know, I I guess the wonderful thing about alcohol-free beer is you could open one at breakfast and then you could then have one at 11 am, and you could have one at with lunch, and then you could have one in the afternoon and you could drink 10 a day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but then I think, quite quickly, you for me it would lose its excitement, it would lose its appeal, because, yeah, I kind of I like to save it up for the moments when I know that I really want it, you know, or I feel like I've not deserved it. I don't want it to be kind of related to that. But I get to the point where I finished dinner, I've done the washing up, and now I'm going to sit down and it's sort of time to chill out, and then beer becomes a ritual and a cue in that situation. You said the word ritual earlier. I think ritual is the most kind of relevant word for a lot of people who maybe rely on beer or or just you know, just so familiar with having beer yeah yeah, because it is it can be.
Speaker 1:It can be a healthy companion. You know like it's a. I think beer is a wonderful thing, um, and it's. You know it's a controversial opinion for me to to take really, um, because I'm supposed to be all pitchforks about it, but I think all forms of beer are great. I think what isn't great is maybe big alcohols, reaction to the rise in alcoholism, um, and the way that they deal with that. Again, that's for a different, uh, that's a completely different conversation. But I think it is ritualistic and I think it's a. It's a healthy ritual as long as it is healthy. And, you know, for when it gets unhealthy, that's when alcohol-free beer is so wonderful yeah, and I'm intrigued by that almost like switch in you, that change.
Speaker 2:That then kind of almost means that you are allowed this or it means you can feel comfortable having these alcohol-free beers, whereas you couldn't with alcohol. Did that sort of come naturally, or did you almost have to force the alcohol-free to become a habit? I'm trying to understand kind of that shift. It was really strange for me.
Speaker 1:So I'd gone. I knew that I had to stop drinking for gosh about 12 months, realistically, and I was trying to moderate and alcohol-free beer to me when I was trying to moderate tasted awful and I can remember having a lucky saint and thinking, oh, this is terrible and I just couldn't get on with it. Free dam I thought was horrible. I ended up pouring. Get on with it. Three dam I thought was horrible, I ended up pouring it down the sink. And then the last night of my drinking was just so dramatic and all of my social group happened to be there and I saw everything that happened and it was just it was now or never. It was kind of a if I don't stop drinking now, then I'm going to lose everything in the next year.
Speaker 1:So literally the next day I was like, okay, alcohol-free beers, I'm going to get on it. And Lucky Saint, I don't know. It was kind of I was clueless. I felt like Lucky Saint was making me not have withdrawal symptoms because of the 0.5, which I now know is absolute nonsense. But at the time it was like there's a little bit of alcohol in there, so it's going to stop my shakes and my withdrawals and all of this. And really I wasn't having withdrawals and it wasn't as dramatic as I thought it was in my head. But then it just became a part of kind of what I did, like it would get to five o'clock and I'd have a craving for sugar, essentially because that sticks around for quite a while.
Speaker 1:Alcohol-free beer yep, cool, feel good. So it did make me feel good, just without the kind of intoxication. And now it's at a point where if I've got a social evening or if I'm seeing friends, I'll buy maybe two, four packs from a supermarket and I often find I only get through about three of them and I've gone and bought 12. So it's kind of that habit hasn't gone away. The kind of no I need. Like 26 beers for an evening gone away, the kind of no, I need like 26 beers for an evening. Like no, I just I drink three of them now, but then I end up stockpiling because I'm so prepared for drinking loads of liquid that's.
Speaker 2:That's fascinating. It's also it's almost that you just come. You always continued that drinking habit, but the drink in your hand just changed and then that became. You managed to make that become the new habit that healthier, better choice yeah, yeah, it was.
Speaker 1:It was literally taking one thing that had alcohol in it, replacing it with another thing that tastes the same, looks the same, smells the same, just doesn't have alcohol in it. And I think the kind of the online community was massive for me as well, because I made the decision to set up an instagram page and start talking about beer and then finding other people that were talking about alcohol-free beer was was massive for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm, and I love that. I love that we can now have these conversations like the kind of how we kind of started talking earlier. It's we weren't having these chats. We weren't having these. These drinks weren't available five years ago. Yes, it just wasn't really an option. They were there, but they were very much on the peripheral and you know they were outside of normal drinking. They were kind of like last. They were like well, we have to put one alcohol free beer in the fridge.
Speaker 2:Let's just put in Bex Blue or whatever it is, came around and it was just yeah and and now I I get surprised by how many alcohol-free beers I see in fridges, or how there's an entire fridge dedicated to, you know, decent alcohol-free drinks yeah, even in the last, like the last six months, it seems to have gone massive, more than I remember in recent times, especially with kegs.
Speaker 1:I'm seeing so much on tap and beforehand it had been kind of a struggle to find anything.
Speaker 2:And the draft stuff. That's the stuff I really want. Yeah, because I want pints. If I'm in the pub, I'm there to have a pint specifically. Yeah, um, and, and that's what I really want.
Speaker 2:And for me, what I find most often is if I'm out drinking with mates, I will alternate now, or I will, if there's alcohol free on draft, I'll have that. If we go somewhere else and there's a beer that I want to drink, I'll have a pint of that. If in the next place I alcohol free, I'll go back to that. So I find myself now actually like kind of flipping, quite naturally, between the two. So it's quite often I'll go out and mates, I'll have four pints and maybe I'll have a two that are beer and two which are you know, two which alcoholic and two which are non-alcoholic, and that feels like a good balance for me.
Speaker 2:I feel like that works for me and I don't feel like it's detrimental to my career in any way, because the beers I would drink anyway. I'm not new beers, I'm not. I'm not in the pub trying to find the next great ipa or anything. I'm there drinking classic bitters and they're drinking pints of guinness and they're drinking kind of the beers that I know and love, because I don't want to spend six quid on a shit pint. I want, yeah, very good pints that are reliable that's it, isn't it like it's it?
Speaker 1:we just and that's the same for for you know, for for non-alcohol drinkers when we go to the pub, it's like I just I don't, I don't want a million different options. I'm not asking for you know, for you to change your entire system. Just give me a decent lager, a decent pail and, if you're feeling generous, like a stout or a sour or something, or a wheat beer, but just two options that aren't Lucky Saint, because it's great, but I'm bored of it, or Heineken Becks, all of that, because it just doesn't cut it anymore.
Speaker 1:Exactly Do you think that that is the future of the kind of alcohol-free movement within beer, getting kegs to more places.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it has to be. I think the only way that the category grows is if it gets in front of more people in a format that they want to drink. So you might have the greatest selection of alcohol-free beer in the world. But if it's all in bottles in the fridge and you're in a pub, then you have to make a much greater. I don't know. It feels like it's more effort to order that bottle or that can out of the fridge and, like you mentioned earlier, you having to ask specifically for what do you have that's. This is a much bigger step than saying can I have the pale ale? Yeah, and it doesn't. It's like it shouldn't feel like much and it's not-.
Speaker 1:You feel like an inconvenience, don't? You shouldn't feel like much and it's not. You feel like an inconvenience, don't you feel that you're inconveniencing someone and and then also everyone around you that you've then said oh, can I see what the alcohol free options are? They're annoyed that it's taking longer and then, you get more kind of paranoid that people are thinking, well, why aren't you drinking?
Speaker 2:and then it just becomes an issue when it really doesn't have to be yeah, and you become very aware that then you've ordered something you know off menu or such or like just a bit different. Um, so, yeah, no, I think the category grows when it's in in pubs and available on pints. I went to a gig at the weekend and I was like, well, I had a couple of beers before I went. I just answered a couple of beers. It was sunday. I was like, yeah, I'm gonna have some beers, went to the gig. I was like I don't want more alcohol, but I do want something in my hand.
Speaker 2:Yes, um, and they had alcohol free on draft and they actually had quite a decent selection. Um, the alcohol free on draft was I think it was San Miguel. Um, I wouldn't have cared what alcohol free bit was on draft, I was just happy to have that as a pint and I was really surprised at how many people were ordering it. So I was just at the bar for 10 minutes or so and they had maybe 10 taps but I saw as many alcohol-free pints poured as any other brand and I thought that was really kind of telling as any other brand and I thought that was really kind of telling. I mean, it was sunday night at kind of an aging punk pop band's gig where you know everyone's, you know thinning hair and fading tattoos and you know that we're not. We're not 20 years old anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm starting to fit into that category and you know I was very, they were very much my people. I very much fit in into that category, um, and yeah, but it's it's interesting that it was available there and and then that made my experience of the gig better.
Speaker 1:I think yeah, I think it is, it's. It's just a no-brainer, isn't it? Because, as well the kind of myth that non-drinkers don't spend money in hospitality it's just well we're not going to because there's nothing to spend money on at the moment exactly it's that chicken and egg issue.
Speaker 2:And yeah, and I think there's a really interesting argument that alcohol-free beer can save pubs.
Speaker 2:You know, by having more choice it makes the pub somewhere that we could spend more time or spend hours of our day in which the pub is doesn't feel like it's an option. By having better alcohol-free choices maybe it means we're more likely to go there, let's say, and use it instead of a coffee shop. You know, if I can go to a pub and I know that I can have maybe a sandwich for a fiver and I can drink a couple of pints of alcohol-free beer, I would much rather sit there and work in the afternoon than sit in a coffee shop and have two flat whites and a ciabatta. I would feel more comfortable in the pub. I would probably get more work done. I'm going to spend 20 quid in that pub. If plenty of other people do that, plenty of other people feel comfortable doing that, then that has to be a good thing. You know, pubs have to be making more money through the day and maybe alcohol-free beer and having that accessibility of it is one way to kind of help get people back into pubs.
Speaker 1:That's a really good point. I didn't even think about the lunchtime punters. What breweries started you on the whole alcohol-free movement? When did your eyes start to open a little bit? Or when did you think, okay, this isn't terrible.
Speaker 2:That's a good question. I feel like my answer is just going to be swayed by what I'm drinking more of now yeah um because for me it was two years ago.
Speaker 1:The first three that I discovered were obviously mash gang, low tide and now below bruko and sheep and wolves clothing. They were the first three that kind of cropped up when I googled alcohol-free craft beer.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And now there's just so many that we're kind of spoiled.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I definitely remember having my first mashgang beers and thinking, oh, this is different. No, like this has changed things. This has leveled up. Or this is going to make everyone else level up because this stuff is really good and or this is going to make everyone else level up because this stuff is really good and it's, it's exciting. This is not just, uh, here's our normal beer, but we took the alcohol out. You know, you're welcome, it's, this is cool. Um, I definitely remember lucky saint early on and drinking lots of lucky saint and and loving that and that, having that as kind of this go-to alternative that I would drink lots of um, trying to even think at what sort of point in my life that became more of a shift that I was aware of would have been.
Speaker 1:It definitely it would have been a couple of years ago it feels, like that's kind of it feels like that's when it started to really roll a couple of years ago. Everyone that I've spoken to has said you know, in the last couple of years it's really gone Okay, it's picking up traction and there's more beers coming out and the kind of technology behind it has got better. So it's interesting and also quite nice for me, because it's literally when I stopped drinking. So I think if I'd have tried it five years prior, I'd have been really fucked yeah, it was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was definitely a good time in in that respect. And then there was just this you know snowballing that and they. That meant there was more and more coming, and now there's this sort of great wave of alcohol free beers coming through. So many more brewers are trying it. I think again we talk about mashgang, but I think they're so central to the story of the development of alcohol free and the growth of alcohol free beer.
Speaker 2:I really don't think you could understate it, because the fact that they've done 40 plus collaborations means they've gone into 40 breweries who didn't make alcohol-free beer and they taught them how to make it. They made this style of, let's say, category of beer which seemed almost impossible to make. They made it very easy to make, very possible to make, and it's encouraged other people to do it. And and it meant that you know, when I'm going into craft beer bars and I'm seeing, oh, hey, there's, you know, that brewery that I really like and they've got a new beer out, oh, and it's 0.5. Okay, well, I'll just grab that as well as these six.
Speaker 1:IPAs that I'm buying.
Speaker 2:And then all of a sudden it's like, oh hey, this is good, so it just made it this more of an option. But then the variety that came with it felt felt really important and felt felt significant and like low tide. I remember buying cases from low tide, but they're below. Was it below bruco? Below bruco now, as of this week yeah, so I remember getting them and you know cases and cases from other places and just not being disappointed.
Speaker 1:I think that's the big thing, isn't it as soon as you start to have beers that you go oh, this is really good. This is the kind of point that I try to make to so many people that it feels like I'm banging my head against a wall. Sometimes it's like the liquid is the same, like it's a beer. It's a beer. I don't wall. Sometimes it's like the liquid is the same, like it's a beer, it's a beer. I don't understand how it's that hard to comprehend, because it is just a beer. There's just no alcohol it's something I've.
Speaker 2:I've really struggled to kind of get my thoughts around it and describe it, but I feel like we just need a better way of describing it than alcohol free or non-alcoholic, because it is just beer. And when you say and I'm I guilt to it I've probably said it several times in the last half hour but if I say, oh, this is the real beer and this is the alcohol-free beer, it's like well, no fat beer or proper beer, or like it's difficult, isn't it?
Speaker 2:I know, and I say it all the time, and you know, and I'm not being, I'm not like trying to take the piss out of it, it's just, that's just what comes up, because that's just. You know, hey, I need to differentiate these two somehow, yeah, but at the same time, why do I need to differentiate them somehow? It's just, it's all beer, just you know, one is 0.5, one is 5.0, one is 8.5, like like that percentage shouldn't make a difference. It's still just the same drink and it's made just the same way.
Speaker 1:I think it will get there, I think, because you know I'm guilty of it as well um, I'm still. I call it proper beer or real beer, or I had someone once try and call um alcohol-free wine, fake wine, and it was like well, okay, fine. But you know, I mean yourself, on Sunday brunch, literally I can remember the first time I saw you on there with alcohol-free beer and I was like what, like I felt so validated, sat at home watching a program that was. We talk about rituals. I'd watch sunday brunch when I was hanging out of my ass, um, and sometimes I have to have to turn it off because the thought of food was just too much.
Speaker 1:And here I was watching you talk about alcohol-free beer and I gently like like I teared up a little bit talking to my girlfriend about it, because it was like this is like this is just so normal and I don't have to feel weird for enjoying this kind of little liquid that's here, and it's kind of like for people that can't drink proper alcohol, or because that's how, very much how I felt at the time and seeing the, the change in people's opinions on it and talking to people within the real beer industry and the real beer world. Um, it's just been lovely because people seem to really be open to it now and it comes from the quality, doesn't it, you know?
Speaker 2:yeah, like there could be 100 alcohol-free beers on the market and available, but if they all taste like garbage, then it's irrelevant because they're crap, it's you know. But the fact that they taste good and people can have them and be like, yeah, it's delicious, I'm gonna have another one because I love it, you know, it just means that this is viable and it means that it's going to continue. And I think we still have this acceptance issue. You know this idea that we it is different, that it's not real, it's not real drinking, it's not real. Beer, it's this, almost like this machismo, you know, machismo idea of you know, oh, hey, you know, I'm going out for beer. I need to, I need to drink pints of it, I need to drink pints of alcohol. You know that is, you know it's going to remain.
Speaker 2:But we're in a big generational shift and it's going to be very interesting to see how the beer industry reacts to it, because in 10 years time the industry is going to be significantly different to what it is now.
Speaker 2:Um five years, 10 years ago, it was very different to what it is now. So the next leap forward is going to be really significant and there are going to be so many more non-drinking, non-alcohol consuming, let's say, 20-year-olds at that point, and so many fewer alcohol drinking 60-year-olds, 70-year-olds. So there's going to be this shift and the beer industry, alcohol industry, if it wants to remain something viable that people spend their money on so that they have nice experiences, nice flavor experiences, they have to be having, they have to be making things that people are going to want to have in their house and they're going to want to go out for and spend money on, which are, you know, alcohol alternatives, alcohol adjacents, you know some things that remain relevant in people's lives by from these bigger brands or smaller brands. Beer or alcohol has to remain relevant because socially it's very important. Yes, it's. How do we make these products which can remain in people's hands while they have conversations, when they go out with friends, when they're at dinner, when they're relaxing, when they're on dates, all of that stuff?
Speaker 1:I think that's the thing, isn't it? It's inclusivity, and I think that's the thing, isn't it? It's inclusivity, and I think that's all anybody wants. I want to be able to go out with my friends and for them to have whatever drinks they want and for me to have whatever drink I want and for us all to be enjoying those drinks together like adults. And that's all I want, and I think that's all that anyone can really ask for. And I think I'd like to see the big companies put a little bit more time into the quality of their liquids, but at the same time I kind of wouldn't, because I want my independence to do well. So it's a difficult balance, I suppose. But as long as good liquid continues to be made, I'm a happy boy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, same, exactly. I just want the choices still to be made. I'm a happy boy. Yeah, same, exactly I just well, I want the choices still to be there and I think the reality is it's going to be led by the bigger breweries, because they're the ones who have so many taps and they have so, so much like real estate in pubs that it's much, potentially much easier for them to say hey, you don't need three lines of Heineken, turn one of them into zero, yeah, you know.
Speaker 2:Or if it's a Carlsberg pub, you know, like the one I was the, the gig I was at that was Carlsberg brands, you know, have some against zero, you don't need that other whatever, whatever brand. And I think they're the perhaps the first steps in whatever, whatever brand. And I think they're the perhaps the first steps in just because of scale and accessibility and budgets and and all of that. Um, you know, I'm I'm genuinely excited. It's, it's the like I said at the beginning, it's one of the things in beer which makes me most excited at the moment is seeing this development, being able to try all these different beers and seeing more people realize that this can be relevant to them yes, and I think that is a massive point and it you know to say it's one of the things that you're the most excited by, that's a huge statement really.
Speaker 1:When, like you say, it's kind of what you have done for a very long time is talk about beer and to talk about alcohol-free beer in the same light as full alcohol beer, that's it's a big deal really and you know beer is, it's just an important part of lots of different social cultures.
Speaker 2:So I want it to remain within that and I love it. I would talk about traveling in spain. You know, when you travel in germany, the choices there are great. You can always get good alcohol-free beer, and I'm really intrigued. I'm going to the us in no one in a few weeks and I every time I've been recently it's because I want to drink as much good beer as possible. Yeah, and actually I say that one of the last times I went, I was intentionally sort of avoided going out just because I didn't want to get drunk on 7% IPAs, so I had this. I guess maybe I was already in this state of thinking like, oh God, I'm going to get absolutely wasted. This time I'm going. I'm really intrigued to see what the alcohol-free range is like, because I still believe that the US market is behind, certainly in terms of its maybe availability in places, and I might be wrong. I'd be very happy to be proved wrong.
Speaker 1:I've heard two completely contradictory points in the last couple of weeks. One person has said that there's some amazing stuff but it just doesn't get talked about over here, and then, literally earlier today, I had someone say, yeah, it's terrible. So I'd be very intrigued as well to see what you make of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's in New England, so it's a really good beer area, but it's quite near kind of athletic Bruins, sort of East yeah, east coast area, so I expect they'll be the ones that I see more than anyone else. So, yeah, I'm definitely intrigued as to what I'll see there, because otherwise I'm just going to be drinking pints of seven percent ipa and my body is not used to that.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I don't know how I well, not always, but I've wondered recently how I'd handle a pint Like I went through a really dangerous phase of being really into like 11% stouts and all of that. And that was when, you know, I'd always have like two nice pints because it was like oh no, no, I like beer, I like beer. And then afterwards, two nice pints, I'd have like a shitload of cheap lager because I liked alcohol. Yeah, like a 7%. It scares me now the thought of it. Even some like functional drinks that have like nootropics in and all of that. I get really anxious before I drink them.
Speaker 2:Oh really.
Speaker 1:Like some of the mushroom drinks and imposter brew and stuff. The first time I had imposter brew I was like I don't know if I want to do this. I don't know how it's going to make me feel it's fucking ridiculous. How did it make you feel um, relaxed?
Speaker 2:but also on edge um, it was just.
Speaker 1:I don't know some of the stories and some of the things that I used to put into myself, and now I'm sat here, look, reading the ingredients list, with a load of like natural herbs and things and getting stressed about it.
Speaker 1:It's just, it's outrageous. Do you like cbd beer? Have you had any? I haven't had any yet, but I would be very interested. Um, and I keep meaning to order it and then something else comes out and I go oh no, I want to get that. So it's on my list, but I haven't done it yet.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the beer I would say I've drunk most in the last, let's say, six months is Brulow, brulow's CBD, I think it's just called CBD IPA.
Speaker 1:Okay, I've had some Brulow before, but not the CBD one.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I got some of their beers and the CBD IPA was in there and it's quite high. So it's 35 milligrams per 330 mil. So it's a pretty high you know, relatively pretty high amount of it. But I don't know whether it psychologically it just makes me feel better because I think there's this kind of impactful cbd in there, or whether it's actually having a difference.
Speaker 2:But I've I've bought a couple of cases of that beer and for me the case of beer is is kind of it's kind of a big deal. You know, I get so much beer, I've got so much beer in the house. I don't want it. It's very infrequent that I would spend my own money on 24 cans or bottles of the same beer. Yes, um, but that is one that I do and I will because I just really like it. It also helps that it's kind of really bitter and really like dank. I think the cbd in it just adds this great hop flavor. Okay, yeah, it's a category. I'm kind of getting a bit more intrigued by these nootropics and mushrooms and things yeah, all the functional drinks um, yeah and I don't think you can get enough dosage in most functional drinks that they're.
Speaker 2:You know they're actually providing a physiological function, yes, but I do think psychologically they can have an impact. Um, although I do, I think 35 milligrams of cbd is probably enough that that would have um an actual impact. But I think any of these mushroom beers like I take some mushroom supplements because I think they're good for sort of fitness and some of the other goals that I have I think they work for that. But I can't imagine the amount of mushrooms that would have to go into a beer for it to be yeah, you'd have to drink so much of the stuff exactly.
Speaker 2:It'd be like chewing through bits at the end and I think I'm happy like I like. But I don't necessarily need all of my vitamins and nutrients to come in beer form.
Speaker 1:I think when it gets to that point, that's when it's like, okay, we need to address this kind of beer issue, that's when it becomes a ritual, when it goes from a ritual to being something a lot more sinister, I think it's like protein beer, like beer that's got 10 grams of protein in it. Yes, I've seen some of those and I just don't understand I don't understand.
Speaker 1:The protein seems to be everywhere at the moment. I mean, protein has always been everywhere, but protein in advertising seems to be everywhere at the moment yeah, and, and even in beer, you know, a liquid that has no right really having protein in.
Speaker 2:But at the same time I'm someone that exercises a lot I'm always thirsty, like if I can drink 10 grams of refreshing protein like I, I just think, well, I should, because then I'm combining my drinks and, you know, getting a nutritional benefit from it.
Speaker 1:But it's strange, isn't it? But I wonder, for people that originally made beer, if I could see what was going on now. I wonder if they'd be over the moon or absolutely fucking livid.
Speaker 2:Uh yeah, that's hilarious. Like just imagine, like some kind of caveman like 10, 10 000 years ago. I wonder what they'd be more and more kind of freaked out by, like aeroplanes or mobile phones or just like hazy IPA.
Speaker 1:What the fuck have you done? Fruited sours Absolutely fucking livid yeah.
Speaker 2:You idiots. All of this technology, all of this great stuff you've achieved, look what you've done, look what you've done to our beer.
Speaker 1:Mark, thank you so much for coming and talking to me. I was really keen to get you on um because I think what you've done for the alcohol-free industry is massive really. Um, like going and talking about it to a national audience. It's, it's just, it's great. I love to see it and thank you for everything that you do of course.
Speaker 2:I mean, if they let me talk about it on tva every week, I'd go on there every week talking about alcohol-free beer. But they don't, unfortunately. So I do my best.
Speaker 1:I do my best whenever I can thank you for listening to this week's episode of the sober boozers club podcast. My name is ben gibbs. You can find me at sober boozers club for all things Dredge. There's a number of ways that you can get involved. You can either head to his website, which is Beardredgecom. You can have a look at GoodBeerHuntingcom and read yourself some articles, or you can watch Sunday Brunch on Channel 4 on Sundays and hopefully he'll be on. Thank you again for listening. My name is Ben Gibbs. You can find me at Sober Boozers Club.