Sober Boozers Club
The Sober Boozers Club Podcast is brought to you by Ben Gibbs - Alcoholic. Since 2022 Ben has been sourcing and enjoying the best alcohol free beer the world has to offer and has been documenting these beverages during his sobriety journey. Ben has worked alongside craft breweries, bottle shops and sober activists to raise awareness of Grey Area Drinking and to help spread the word on the growing market that is AF/NA beverages, becoming the face of the Alcohol Free Beer Club and featuring on many podcasts, as well as securing a number of features on BBC Radio. In 2024 Ben became the first alcoholic in active recovery to win a British Guild Of Beer Writers award for commentary on beer. This podcast features experts from the Beer world, as well as Alcohol Free breweries and sober activists as we explore the world of Alcohol Free beer and sobriety.
Sober Boozers Club
From Frustration to Innovation: The Jump Ship Brewing Story
When Sonja Mitchell couldn't find good alcohol-free beer during Dry January 2018, she did what any frustrated craft beer lover might dream of doing – she started Scotland's first dedicated alcohol-free brewery. Jump Ship Brewing was born from that frustration, and has since collected numerous awards for their innovative, flavor-packed beers.
In this captivating conversation, Sonja pulls back the curtain on the fascinating world of alcohol-free brewing, revealing why it's anything but simple. "The whole process is just a lot more finickety," she explains, detailing the unique challenges of creating complex flavors without alcohol's natural preservative properties. Her description of brewing their Gooseberry Gose – a process involving lactobacillus fermentation that left the team "blind for the first couple of weeks until we got the lab results back" – showcases the remarkable craftsmanship behind quality alcohol-free beer.
The episode marks a special moment as Sonja unveils Jump Ship's latest innovation: Stoker Stout Extra Smooth, a nitro-canned creation that delivers the silky mouthfeel beer lovers expect from traditional stouts. This commitment to authentic brewing techniques challenges the tired stereotype that alcohol-free beer is somehow "not proper beer" – an attitude Sonia has battled since founding Jump Ship.
We're witnessing what Sonja calls "one of the biggest social revolutions" in drinking culture. The data backs this up, with alcohol-free beer consumption growing steadily year after year. The most telling sign? January 2024 saw on-trade customers continuing to order alcohol-free options beyond Dry January – evidence that people now "have the confidence to go out and expect to get a really good alcohol-free beer."
Want to discover why this revolution isn't slowing down? Listen now and join the growing community of drinkers who've found that great beer isn't about alcohol content – it's about flavor, craftsmanship, and the joy of discovering your next favorite brew.
To find out more about the wonderful world of alcohol free beer and to check in with me head to www.instagram.com/sober_boozers_club
This episode is not brought to you by any sponsors because nobody wants to sponsor me.
This is the Sober Boozers Club podcast. This podcast, we're going to talk to people from within these circles and find out a little bit about their journey, so you sit back, relax and enjoy. In today's episode, I'm talking to Sonia Mitchell, who is the managing director and the founder of Jump Ship Brewing. Now, jump Ship Brewing were the first ever alcohol-free dedicated brewery in Scotland, founded in December 2019. They've since gone on to win multiple awards, released some incredible beers. It was a crime I didn't have them on for season one, so we've gone and fixed that. Sonia hello. Thank you very much for coming and having a chat to me today. It's been 2024, big year for you guys. 2025 is probably going to be even bigger, right.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely, it's a busy time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I feel like last year it was just sort of it was like we started at zero. We were setting up the brewery total blank slate. So a lot of last year was just about getting the brewery working, getting our production up and running, getting our systems in place, working out all the quirks and things that throw up when you know, brewing our beers on our own kit for the first time. Rounding up with the end of the year, we got our salsa accreditation, which is um this as documentation that a lot of the bigger customers demand. So that that was a huge amount of work for us as a small producer to get all of our systems and documents and all of that in place. So we've done all of that. So now this year feels like about making more beer, making more different beers and selling a lot more beer as well.
Speaker 1:Or like actually doing the thing that you wanted to do, absolutely. Yeah, I suppose when you get into, you know brewing, and especially when it's alcohol free, there's a load of things that must crop up that you're like nobody told me about that. Like all these horrible, like technicalities that you have to deal with in order to just make the liquid, sell the liquid and make more of the liquid yeah, the the whole process is just a lot more finickety, and I think that's something I've learned a lot in the last five years.
Speaker 2:I started out pretty naive and not knowing much about it, just kind of very much coming into it as a beer drinker and the beer I wanted to drink and I couldn't find, and being very annoyed at that and deciding to brew my own. But then from that point onwards it's been just one big learning adventure because yeah, I mean just there's so many things that that can go, go wrong. I mean the, the fermentation itself, it's. It's an organic process. We're dealing with live organisms, which for me is what makes brewing so exciting. But you know it will do different things and I think for us in the brewery you know it's. We're dealing with live organisms, which for me is what makes brewing so exciting, but you know it will do different things and I think for us in the brewery, you know it's going through the seasons, like brewing in summer is different to brewing in winter, because temperature is such an important part of that process and how quickly the beer cools has quite an impact in the fermentation profile.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it's a kind of a process of continuous improvement and discovery so you say you started because you couldn't find the beer that you wanted to drink. How long have you been kind of looking for alcohol-free beer, was it? Or what kind of got you on to the the hunt for alcohol-free beer that then led you to kind of setting this up?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I'm probably one of those people who had always discounted alcohol-free beer as something that was pretty disgusting and to be avoided at all costs. I kind of went through three pregnancies and didn't touch a drop of the stuff because I just thought I'd better off with water. And so it was December, it was January 2018. We did dry January, I think.
Speaker 2:A friend a couple of months ago, previous to that, said oh, I'm drinking alcohol-free beer and I found this nice one, and I was a bit like, oh, okay, so we got the mixed case of alcohol-free beers from an online retailer and worked our way through it, and most of them were pretty disappointing. Um, I think in that case, I had a very early big drop beer which kind of was like oh, this is a different approach to to alcohol free. They're just focusing on it. That's interesting, and I kind of I found one in the mix that I quite liked and it was, um, I think was the Cronbacher Pills, and so I started drinking that and I had that Tuesday night beer without the Wednesday morning fuzzy head and I was like this is great, I can drink beer when I want to, but it wasn't the beer that I would normally drink and I think, having moved to Scotland in 2009 made it my home, got really excited about all the brewers I was discovering here.
Speaker 2:You know, edinburgh's got really a brewing scene, um, and yet here I was drinking something different because I was avoiding alcohol, and then I just felt really annoyed that I was being forced to do something different at a point when I was trying to make a better choice for myself and I didn't want to leave behind all the stuff I loved about beer that kind of variety and the choice and discovery and also that kind of sense of provenance that beer comes from somewhere. And yeah, I still can't quite explain why it became such a compulsion, but I think I was so irritated and also I got a sense more. I talked to people. I got a sense of opportunity because I realized it wasn't just me who was on this journey, but actually a lot of people friends were looking at cutting back on on alcohol, um, looking for better beers, and had this kind of curiosity, and so I just thought, well, maybe I'll just have a crack. Um, and starting at the basic point of well, can I make a beer that tastes better than what's out there already?
Speaker 1:I can't do that there's no point and just took it from there well, yeah, I think you know, when you go to certain places and you can't find anything that you want to drink, it does definitely start that little spark in you thinking why isn't this available? Someone should make this happen, and I think we're very lucky now because there are so many places that do good stuff. But that's only really been over the last maybe three years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, and it's changing so much. I mean, it's what I think really interesting for us this year is. January has always been about um, direct consumer so website sales are really important. Lots of people are, you know. It's really good from a pr and marketing. There's lots of interview opportunities and interest. But um on trade is pretty dead. But we haven't seen that this year. So our on trade customers have just kept going, which suggests to me that people are still going out and I think they've got the confidence to go out and expect to get a really good alcohol free beer and that, to me, is it's just that's a change that's happened in 12 months.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. Like beforehand going out places, I'd rely on like online maps to find places that sold something that I could drink, or I'd be looking ahead at venues and trying to find drinks menus and things like that. And they're always outdated online drinks menus so you'd think you were going to get something good and they'd just have nothing. But now I kind of don't do that anymore and it's not through a lack of caring. It's more 50% of the time now when I go somewhere there's going to be something really good and quite often you'll find something on tap just in a random bar, even if it happens to be a Lucky Saint or a Freedom or one of the generic ones. But you'll see pubs with rotational taps that are on constantly with different brewsws and that's really exciting. And that has only been the last, as you say, the last 12 months. I've really noticed that and I think it will continue to grow. Well, I hope it continues to grow. It certainly seems like it's going to, especially after this january, with how many new beers have been relief.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think it was sort of market sitting about 3% retail, 1.5% on trade. I think we'll get to 10% easily. I think once you've found that alcohol-free beer that you enjoy and discover, then there's no going back. You don't I think, you just drink more of it, and it's just the easiest way to manage your alcohol intake and feel healthier and better. So I think there's just so many benefits for it. I think it's only going to go one way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I hope so, because I mean for me, in terms of you know, I drink alcohol-free beer because I can't drink alcohol. Terms of you know I drink alcohol-free beer because I can't drink alcohol. Um, and I'm just a small portion of the people that will drink this stuff like it's. I have to remind myself quite often that you know it's not just alcoholics but can enjoy alcohol-free beer, but it's. It was the biggest tool at my disposal for giving up alcohol, because I could still have something in my hand that I wanted to drink and I didn't have to feel like I was missing something that I really loved. If anything, it was another step on the journey into the world of beer.
Speaker 1:I've learned so much about beer since giving up alcohol. It's like a whole other part of the brewing process and the science behind it. Speaking of this, we need to talk about a particular beer that you can probably guess I'm going to mention the case. Yep, that's the one. Like that is an art form in a can. Like the way that that is brewed. How do you even begin?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's, it's really, I mean, and and and the salad beers have certainly been some of the most challenging brews that we've done and also the most exciting, because you can sour a beer by adding lactic acid. But that's quite a one-dimensional. You're getting sourness but you're not getting the full flavour complexity. So we've taken a fairly purist approach to how we do it. So we're starting off with lactobacillus, so it's kind of a bacterial fermentation before we get to the yeast. And so with the gooseberry goes, we sort of started with the wort, so the barley and water mixture, added gooseberries, whole fruit and then the lactobacillus and then we kept it warm for a week or two. And that is really nerve-wracking as a non-alcoholic brewery because we're not in control at that point and everything we do is very controlled and even we don't have sort of really expensive alcohol testing equipment on site. So so we we generally send off the laboratory testing and so we're using the sacramenters, which is a very cool piece of equipment, probably hasn't changed for hundreds of years, but it kind of measures the the consumption of sugars, because generally the yeast that is consuming the sugars converts into alcohol. But in a wild fermentation you've got all sorts of bacteria and things consuming sugars. So we were kind of blind for the first couple of weeks until we got the lab results back. It's just terrifying, but we were getting these really incredible flavours going. There's a sort of of funkiness that you get from, from lactic fermentation, um, and then sort of the way sort of once we were happy with it, we sort of boiled it up to stop everything and then, um, blended it with another brew to get everything all coming together up until the kind of final point when we got the final measurement. It's like, yes, we are less than 0.5, okay, but, um, yeah, it's, but but fruit, and fruit is full of sugars, because it's the other thing that we always like. We're really controlling the amount of available sugars, so so then to just chuck a load of sugar-filled fruit into it as well, it's kind of turning quite a few of our own rules on its head and yeah. So I think, I think we're gonna.
Speaker 2:We're continuing to develop the process for how we we do our sour beers um to to continue to get that flavor and to try and make it slightly less stressful for us as well. Looking at sort of how and when we add fruit is kind of an important part of that. Do we just rely on the lack of a service or do we add some yeast? I don't think we're quite sort of each one we're doing. We're doing it slightly differently and we're learning and then I think we'll become sort of fine-tuned in how we do it. But it's important for me to do these difficult beers because that's why we've got our own brewery. You know, we can't do this kind of stuff contracted out. We need to kind of fiddle with it and test it and taste it and obsess anxiously over it, to to get different results and to kind of have that variety and choice, which is what I wanted when I cut of cut back on alcohol yeah.
Speaker 1:But then you listen to that and you'll get I mean, I don't get this very often anymore, but initially I did, which was you know sort of three years ago that I started getting into this world and you get people say, oh, it's not, it's not proper beer, it's not real beer. And it's like what, what? What's not real beer? And it's like, well, what's not proper about it? Like, just listening to that, like this is how we made this drink. What's not proper about that? It's wild. The process that goes into it is exactly the same, right, it's just you don't want ethanol to be produced at the end.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's that same thing with like why are your beers expensive? And it's like well, where's the value? Is the value just purely in that alcohol, Then we might as well just go and buy vodka. If the value is the taste and the flavor and all of the work that's gone into creating something really interesting and fulfilling to drink, then that's your alcohol-free craft beer yeah, I had this argument with someone.
Speaker 1:It was weirdly. Tiktok is, for me, the most toxic place on the internet. Oh, wow. And a lot of people say, like, tiktok's so much friendly and so much more lovely.
Speaker 1:I've had some horrible conversations on tiktok the point where I've started wanting to challenge it a little bit and it's like no, if you're going to say, oh, what's the point? And I'll say, okay, well, flavor. And when you say flavor, you know that they then go on to yeah, but I like my alcohol, my beer, to get. See, I'm doing it already. I like my beer to get me drunk and it's like all right, well, what's the point in you drinking a beer? Then why don't you what'd you say? Have a vodka? In fact, what's the point of vodka? Why don't you what did you say? Have a vodka? In fact, what's the point of vodka? Why don't you go and shoot up?
Speaker 1:I said that to someone once and they were like all right, calm down. It's like well, let's use your logic here If the only point of a drink is to get you plastered and yet you're preaching that you love this liquid and you're disrespecting beer, if anything, by saying the only way a beer can be proper is if it's got high ABV. Yes, I know there's so much more to beer than that. I mean, I wish I could have told myself that when I was an alcohol drinker, because you know, I was a big fan of the Red Stripe and the Pilsners with the yellow can, with the green top. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the main like I loved them and I can't think of anything worse now.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it's just, it's mad when you actually talk to people that brew this stuff and you know the processes that go into it and like, because every style of beer is different, like the way that you approach it and having got into it, I mean you, you guys were scotland's first alcohol-free brewery, right, yeah so there's got to have been a lot of trial and error from your part, because there wasn't really a rule book in how to do this no, no, and I didn't realize that at the start.
Speaker 2:So it did recipe development on small kits so it's 100 liters um and then wrote out a process um sheet from that to then take to a commercial brewery to get them to replicate it. And I think at that point I didn't realize how little anyone really knew about alcohol-free brewing. I mean, I knew that I didn't know anything because I wasn't a brewer um but um. So I kind of went into it thinking I'd be very reliant on people I was working with to to sort it out and the beer would turn out all right. But but because it kept not turning out all right, I kind of realized actually this was just new and and no one really knew how to do it and I was the one who cared most about it. So it was up to me to to really get under the skin of everything and try and manage everything to get the flavour that I was after. So it was a very, very steep learning curve.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and have you found, since those early days, you're getting breweries now come to you in terms of oh, we're wanting to do X, y, z, alcohol-free, can you? Help us a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, definitely. We're wanting to do xyz alcohol free. Can you help us a little bit? Yeah, yeah, definitely, um, and I think with our own sort of brewery now it's like you brew it for us, um. So I mean, the thing that is a kind of a real killer for small craft alcohol free production is the pasteurization side of it. It's, um, it's not a process that most brewers have, but it's one that we've invested in because that's how we can get the shelf life on the can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that has been a real boon for alcohol-free recently is I'm getting cans in my hand now that don't go out of date for over 12 months. Yeah, over 12 months, yeah, yeah, oh, this is a true like the amount of beer that I've wasted because I've had it and it's been sat in my fridge and it's like no, I don't want to drink that yet because I want to do this video on it and I can't be bothered to do that right now. Um, which is such a first world problem for me, but it's, it's a real problem. Um, and then there's cancer is like six months out now and I just don't trust it with it being alcohol free, like one for alcohol. I don't know what. I don't understand enough about it to know how that's going to affect me, and also like alcohol kills everything, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, alcohol is a brilliant preservative. You know it's, it's and that's just. The basic premise of your beer is that you've gone through a full fermentation. There's there's no residual sugars left that could kick off another fermentation and the beer has kind of got that alcohol content. So so because we don't have, you know, we've we now certainly still got residual sugars flying around in it that yeast could get to work in and we don't have that alcohol. And I also don't want to put in a load of chemical preservatives, which is you might find in some beers. So pasteurization is the way to kind of keep it as natural as possible and it's another step in the process and it's not cheap. So, yes, and that was when I didn't have the brewery and I was contract producing. That was kind of the hardest part was putting together the brew slots and the canning slot and making sure that we could do it. It was a real headache.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I looked into it once, just on like a, because I still get like drunken impulses even if I don't drink. It's like I'll be sat and it'll be like midnight on a week night and I should be in bed because I've got work tomorrow. But I'll go wonder if I could make a beer and then I'll let my brain run for a little bit and start looking at it, then go. No, that's ridiculous, whereas you know beforehand I'd have just gone. Yeah, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna put all my money into it, like right now. But just from a really brief look into what that looks like you're talking about, there's so much work I can't even begin to imagine.
Speaker 1:So then, as you say, when people come at you with the price of things, it's like well, what do you expect? You can get a very cheap alcohol-free beer in home bargains, but you're going to know that it's a very cheap alcohol-free beer from home bargains we're interested in, if we're invested in good beer, because there is a place for the cheap stuff like that's, that's fine, but I don't want to be drinking that like I. I value my, my beverage too much. It's like it's a treat, isn't it? You want to enjoy it. But no one's saying that you should replace tap water with alcohol-free beer.
Speaker 2:That would just be silly yeah, and when you're drinking it for flavor, you're kind of really taking the time to experience it and enjoy it and and get get that value from it yeah, absolutely it's.
Speaker 1:It's a really important thing. I think it's like it becomes a ritual, or it's definitely a ritual for me. I mean, I've said so many times, I still drink like an addict. It's just for the stuff. Now, doesn't get me drunk, but I get stressed if I don't have good beer in the house. This is my little treat. This is the thing that I like to do for myself. Why shouldn't I spend money on it and why shouldn't I give breweries money for it?
Speaker 2:You know it's the industry and it's why I kind of love to be and it feels such a privilege to be doing what we're doing, to be able to give people that treat. And I think people come up to me and I sometimes hear some quite emotional stories about how they've cut out alcohol, why they've had to cut out alcohol and how, through this really difficult time, being able to drink our beer has really helped and made a difference. And if we're a little part of making people's everyday life better, then that feels pretty good.
Speaker 1:And it did because I wouldn't have stopped drinking if there weren't good options available. And I might not have carried on with this sobriety journey that I'm on if I hadn't found this community and been able to put my time into something. Yeah, because just talking about sobriety for me is like I'm three years in now. I'm kind of I'm not bored of it. I've kind of got nothing left to say it's just regular living. Yeah, and I'm never bored of it. I've kind of got nothing left to say it's just regular living, and I'm never going to be one of these people that's like oh so today I woke up and I had this craving. I fought through it and I beat it. No, I didn't. I'm three years in. I didn't wake up and have a craving.
Speaker 1:I can't create that narrative for the internet, but alcohol-free beer is constantly coming out Constantly new, isn't it? But alcohol-free beer is constantly coming out, constantly new beers that are being released. There's constantly more people that are wanting to try it for the first time. It's like I can help by just saying this exists, this exists, this exists, and within three years I've done, we're pushing a thousand beers. I wouldn't have thought that was possible.
Speaker 2:No, that is amazing, and there's still more. Like in. I saw you posting about alcohol-free old peculiar, and I'm like who'd have thought it? Well, yeah it's ridiculous.
Speaker 1:I mean, in my, in my video fridge, I've got a two film fit fridge and I've got my duplicate fridge, where it's like the duplicate fridge is just, I can just drink this and not have to go and set up my camera and film and tell everyone to be quiet in my house. And then I've got my two film fridge, which is like a tiny little mini fridge, but there's 40 bloody cans in there at the moment and I've got 28 videos on my phone that I haven't edited yet and I'm just like when am I going to get to all of these?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and have a job and everything yeah yeah, because this doesn't shockingly, this doesn't pay my mortgage. It's just ridiculous. But yeah, it's for so many beers and I would not have thought for a second that you'd be able to access all of these, these incredible beers, not just from the UK, but like you've got european imports from people like omp amazing beers coming out in america and japan. Who knew that japan had such an alcohol-free market? Apparently it's second below germany for alcohol-free beer consumption oh, I did not know that I didn't know that it might not even be true anymore.
Speaker 1:But I definitely read that once and thought what? No, that's not true. And then didn't look that it might not even be true anymore. But I definitely read that once and thought what no, that's not true. And then didn't look any further into it. So don't quote me on that. But the amount of beers is my point Just ridiculous. And new ones being released all the time as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's exciting times.
Speaker 1:And, speaking of this, you showed me something before we started talking here. I did. It's very exciting.
Speaker 2:It's about this yeah, so this is so. Stoker stout is, um, one of our core beers that we've been producing for two or three years now. Um and um kind of always had this and it always had this curiosity about nitro canning and doing a nitro version of our stout. Um, which? And basically the the difference. Like we, we normally carbonate our beers because there isn't enough fermentation to produce that fizz. We have to add extra carbon as we can it, and carbon dioxide bubbles, you know, produce fizz and they kind of lift the flavor and give the some of the body and mouth. Nitrogen bubbles are different to carbon dioxide bubbles. They're smaller, so they create a really different mouthfeel.
Speaker 2:So obviously, guinness is the legendary stout. They've done such an incredible marketing team. So kind of people I think there is an expectation of smoothness with stout and so it's kind of simple what happens if we did a nitro version of our stoker stout? And so, yeah, we sent it. So this is the first beer we've produced here that we haven't been able to can on site because we don't have that capability yet. But if people tell us they really like this and they want us to produce lots of it, then I can look at making that upgrade to our canning line.
Speaker 2:But yeah, so we sent it away. We've done it in the big 440 ml can Put a bit of gold on it, which I'm just really for my own pleasure. And yeah, and we got thes back a couple of days ago, so really sort of nerve-wracking to see whether we were gonna get the back. Um, and uh, yeah, uh, practicing that, that hardball to to put it upside down in the glass and um, yeah, do you want me to open this for you now? Is that it's not great for radio, is it?
Speaker 1:I mean, yeah, go for it. Go for it like it's anticipation, isn't it yeah? Cool, I shall grab a glass one second all right, here we go yeah, this really excites me there we go.
Speaker 2:I'll I might have to adjust my background. There we go, okay. So here we have first public pour of Doka's style, extra Smooth.
Speaker 1:Look at that you can see all those little nitrogen. Yeah, that was magic. There we go. That's beautiful. That must be such a like triumphant moment that first it's like it's doing the thing right. Yeah, you know what the only downside of these nitrous delts is? I have the hardest water in my house and every time it's like no dirty glass and it's just.
Speaker 2:It infuriates me yeah, that's the benefit of being in scotland is um the soft water sauerglasses yeah, I've got, apparently, rinse aid, dishwasher.
Speaker 1:Dishwasher, rinse aid apparently is quite good and I haven't tried it yet. I've got some rinse aid but I don't have a dishwasher. So, yeah, maybe this will be the beer that I bring the rinse aid out for brilliant, brilliant.
Speaker 2:I feel like maybe I should send you a polished glass to pour it into that would be most welcome, would you like?
Speaker 1:that would be amazing. That'd be amazing. I'll make sure that I use it because, you know, glassware is so important, I think and on the alcohol-free front, there's nothing worse than when you go to a pub and you ask for like a dusty beer from the back of the fridge and they serve it to you in like a Coke glass or a soft drinks glass and it just immediately ruins everything. And maybe that's me taking it a bit far, but I think it's. You know, it is the presentation and the ritual of having a drink, isn't it? It's important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and it's really funny last night I was pouring myself a beer and all the glasses I wanted were in the dishwasher and I had just like a tumbler that the kids drink. They're squashing and I'm like, no, that I cannot use that glass. I'm gonna keep hunting because that's not the experience.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, time when you're talking about making this liquid and the taste profile of it, and even the distribution of it and setting up the brewery and pasteurization. The only time ABV comes into the conversation is when you say, but it's alcohol-free. Or someone says, but it's alcohol-free. It doesn't even have to feature in conversation, does it? It's really not important when you're talking about the process and then the subsequential drinking of the liquid.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that's why draft is so important to this category, because then it is totally normalized. Oh, I'll have a pint of that. It comes in a pint glass, it's a beer in a pint glass, doesn't matter if it's 0.5 or 4.5, it'sa beer, um and so, um, I think that's that's something that really can, I hope, cease and accelerate in the next few years. It just becomes normal that every pub has an alcohol-free tap.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Do you think that is the future of it? Do you think it has to be?
Speaker 2:I think so. Yeah, yeah, I think it's going to take a bit longer, and I think because pubs need to look after their lines as well. Yeah, you know it's a more delicate beer. I kind of always think it's a bit like cask after your cask beers that you know they're. They're more delicate, um so. So I think that that might sort of slow it down a bit, but, um, I think in terms of people's expectations, that's what we should be expecting. We should be able to go into the pub and get a pint of really good alcohol-free beer alongside all the other choices. Yeah, and then you're being treated equally to everyone else who's coming to that club.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you don't have to ask, you don't have to say the words alcohol free if you don't want to. I think that was such a trigger for me early on was what's your alcohol free beer selection? Oh, it's bex blue. Okay, fine, can I have some lemonade as well, you know, but I don't mind it taking a little bit longer if it means the quality is good, because I'll never forget my first mash gang on tap. It was terrible, oh really so disappointed, and I knew instantly as soon as they poured it up. It was like you've got dirty lines here, like as soon. And it was like you've got dirty lines here, like as soon. And it was like nope, it tasted like wrong. And I know that that wasn't the mash gang liquid. Yeah, like for a fact.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah and you're someone who knows beers and knows that that's not what the beer should be, and there's other people who'll go in and have I'll have a pint of that, yeah, and they'll be like, oh, alcohol-free beer is crap and that's yeah.
Speaker 1:That's the end of that that journey and and then it gets even. I mean, this is in extreme circumstances, but how many people in their sobriety journey get into real trouble because they've had one bad alcohol-free beer and it's ruined it for them? It's? It's probably not that many, but you know, one is too many yeah and that's kind of I.
Speaker 1:That's how deep I think about these things. That's why I'm so obsessed with the liquids. It's like I will put that flag in the ground and say this stuff saves lives. But you know, bad alcohol-free beer, you can't. It's very hard to break that stigma and the industry has done so well for the last few years for it to suddenly go out ever on tap and it just not be good. I think it'd be a real shame like I've had. It was a I think it was a cloud water as well, um, and I was drinking it and a friend of mine was drinking it and he just kept saying why is this so flat? And I was like it's because of stop, stop, stop saying the beer's flat, say what, what have they done to this?
Speaker 2:you know, because I've had cloud war elsewhere on tap and it's been excellent yeah so I think it, I think it's education, isn't it, that needs to be kind of distributed, yeah, among hospitality venues and I think trust, sort of trust, trust at all levels between the brewers and the venues, and then and then ultimately so that the person is ordering that pint gets the best possible pipe.
Speaker 2:And then, you know, because I think we've done so much in the last five years since I've been doing jump ship, you know when I like when I first launched um, I did a bit of facebook advertising back in 2020 and oh, it was horrible the comments I was getting and it was like get onto this and ask how, yeah, and it was kind of, and it followed into like direct messages and things like that and I was just like how, how are you getting so offended by this? Like I, I'm just producing a choice for people who want it and people seem to take it as a personal attack. It is fascinating but also not nice. When you're kind of running a small business by yourself and it's 11 o'clock at night, someone's sending you nasty messages, um, and a pandemic is like what can they say yeah, yeah, it's like we could all die here and you're worried about them taking away your um five percent lager yeah, indeed, indeed, it just yeah, it was mind-boggling and I think, I think that that has really dropped away.
Speaker 2:I mean, you still get some numpties, but of course. But it's the but the. The general crowd is like, yeah, this, of course, this is, this is normal and it's just such a nicer space to be in.
Speaker 1:I think I'm quite lucky in that regard because I've got the I'm an alcoholic thing to throw at them. It's so funny the amount of comments I'll get where it's like drink a proper beer or say something along those lines and you go yes, I am an actual alcoholic. And the amount of times people are the conversation finishes with being well done to you for giving it up and it's like, yeah, cool, shut up, get in your lane now. But I can imagine early on it was really difficult Because I suppose you've got like the. I mean, I can't relate to this because I'm lucky enough to have been born a white man, but you've got two things here. Like woman sets up alcohol-free brewery, like I can imagine. For some people that was just like this can't be yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's definitely and I think there was an element of now, young lady, can I just I don't think you really know what you're doing Right Can I just take a bit of time to point out where you're going wrong? Because really know what you're doing right? Can I just take a bit of time to point out where you're going wrong? Because I'm certainly not able to work that out for yourself and and really you should be leaving this to the big boys who know what they're doing and want a proper pint, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, jesus, I love, I just I love the planet.
Speaker 1:I love this world sometimes, but within the industry, like the alcohol free sector, it feels a lot more kind of like friendly than you hear about the full-alcohol sector, maybe historically.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, definitely, it is a friendly space. It's interesting for me if you look at the three breweries in the UK who are producing their own specialist non-alcohol. You've got Nirvana, Drop Bear and Jump Ship, which is interesting yeah.
Speaker 1:It's probably a point that doesn't get talked about enough. No.
Speaker 2:I don't know whether we're just, I don't know, but it's all.
Speaker 1:I think it's important. Like you, look at the rest of the country right and it's just, you know, it's still very one-way leaning. Yeah, so I think that is.
Speaker 2:That is huge yeah, um, but I think also as kind of like as craft brewers we're, we've got the macro competition and and but you know there's no point really fighting amongst each other. We kind of it's better to be kind of create a supportive environment where we're lifting everyone up, because I a sort of as a macro level, it's really tough trying to get into pubs when there's distribution deals with all the big. You know that it, you know there's so much to the market that in some ways it's already sewn up that we're all.
Speaker 2:We're all want to give choice and then same reason and and if we can get more people excited and enthusiastic about about alcohol free beer, then it benefits everyone yeah, no, that's I completely agree.
Speaker 1:Like, as, as the market grows, hopefully the people that have been there from from the start of it will will continue to grow with it. Like there's, there's a a range of breweries that when you first start looking into this stuff, you discover that are doing it year in, year out. You know they're not just dropping small batch brews in january. Yes, I know this is a, this is an everyday thing for these people and I think it's really important that these people are recognized for like, for the groundwork that they put in. Really, yes, it was, it was huge. It's probably one of the biggest social revolutions that we're going to see yeah I think people's change in towards drinking and the mentality towards drinking alcohol-free beer.
Speaker 1:Like who would have thought that we would have been at the british guild of beer award award. Like yeah if you'd have said that 10 years ago or even even five years ago maybe five years ago how many people were coming to drink alcohol-free beer there, and there was no. No one looked down their nose at it, or at least not openly.
Speaker 2:You know it's huge um, and it's interesting as well that how it it so will it change everything in terms of how people socialise? So I think there's some things that quite shift you, and I certainly think nightclubs are finding it a lot harder. But I think pubs are beginning to see that this isn't the end of the pub, but maybe there's aspects of the pub that are a bit different. The pubs are a bit different, busier at different times of day, different. The pubs are a bit different, busier at different times of day. That kind of early evening and lunchtime is a lot more important than it used to be. Um and uh, yeah, but but bottom line is people are still going out like that. I think it used to be that not drinking meant not going out, and that's not the case anymore.
Speaker 1:It's just going out and drinking differently yeah, and still being able to drink volume. Yeah, because I want to be out, because I want to socialise Absolutely when my social battery is drained, be that 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock, 3 in the morning, that's when I'll leave. But I want to drink different beers because it's just nice. The kind of myth of they'll buy one drink and then they'll go home because it's just nice. The kind of myth of they'll buy wandering and then they'll go home, like that's.
Speaker 2:That did used to be the case, but it's not anymore because the stuff is just good and continuing to get better yeah, we've got our fifth birthday party tomorrow night and we're going to have four different taps and I'm very excited to have having at least four points, maybe six points yeah, exactly, and it's all good.
Speaker 1:It's all good. That's mad for five years yeah you've seen the real, the real growth from, from the days of I mean, what else was even out there five years ago? I'm not clued up on this at all. I know big drop were around yeah I think remember people talking about big drop um yeah.
Speaker 2:So yeah, big drop where I think might be 2018, I think like somewhere around. Then, um, lucky saying, lucky saying came out early 2019, um, and then I I was sort of dropped there we're kind of mid 2019. I was kind of start of 2020. And then MASH Scam started appearing around that same time. I think Guinness Heineken Zero was about 2018, I think Guinness Zero came and then went and then came back again. So yeah, it's quite mind-boggling. I think, um Guinness Zero came and then went and then came back again. Um, so yeah, it's quite mind-boggling. And if you and you look how you know, like where Lucky Saint is over after sort of five years and you know they've done a great job in opening up the draft category but not out, um, the size of guinness zero in the space of a couple of years is just bonkers yeah, ridiculous, it's the first thing people say well, yeah, it's, it's always.
Speaker 1:and I think that what guinness have done is actually quite important to people's perception of the industry, because I I think I think guinness is fine like it's, just, I don't think it's incredible as a liquid, but I think what they've done as a brand is incredible because people will actually people trust Guinness and they'll buy a Guinness and go, oh no, this will be all right. If I'm going to drink anything alcohol-free, I'll drink this because I know it and I know what it should taste like and it's pretty close. So I think people trying that and then going, oh, that stuff's all right, then they're more willing to go, oh well, what's that like, what's that?
Speaker 2:like, what's that like? So, yeah, absolutely like, I think for me, I think it's it's really important that the um big brands take the category seriously and do a good job with this, because they and their reach is far beyond anything we can do as a small business. But if you have a good experience with one of the established brands, then it kind of de-risks trying maybe something you've not heard of before.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is why I get so angry with Heineken and brands like that, like Bitter, moretti, perone, all of these staple supermarket beers that are just not up to scratch in my opinion. I think it's so damaging for everyone. It's damaging for consumers and it's damaging for people that are trying to make real good stuff, because people will have had these negative experiences with supermarket beers and go no, I'm not gonna buy that, that it's going to taste like that other stuff that I don't like. So hopefully that changes. But also I kind of don't. I don't think I deserve to to profit from it. So it's like difficult one, isn't it?
Speaker 1:yeah but yeah, I don't know, maybe. But I mean, proper job is very good. I'll say this in terms of supermarket beers proper job releasing in morrison's was a was a very big, big deal for me. Yeah, I think that's really excellent and hopefully a sign of things to come, because that's again one of those beers that I didn't think we'd ever get in alcohol free. Yeah, and it's how you can see that the industry is definitely catching up and people are going right. We need to get on with this now. Yeah, put something out, that's good.
Speaker 2:Definitely, and I think with that traditional British beer the early examples were quite kind of that weird malty sweetness going on.
Speaker 1:Horrific. Yeah, you will never taste anything that compares to a bad English ale that's alcohol free. It's like what even is this? It's like caramel, but made by robots.
Speaker 2:That's the only so bizarre yeah, so to to see some really good examples coming through, because, yeah, it just makes it a more exciting category to be in um. So, yeah, it's good times and yeah, I'm kind of looking forward to to this year coming up and getting our beer into more places and, um, yeah, just continuing that. So discovering is that?
Speaker 1:is that your main aim for this year? Do you think is more, get that core range out to more people, or have you got any kind of passion projects that you'd really like to see happen? Obviously you've got the nitro stout that's coming yeah, got the nitro stout coming out very exciting um, uh, yeah, I think it's.
Speaker 2:It's getting out of core range into to more places and and being more available and better known. I think we're a little bit scotland's best best kept secret and then continuing to to innovate and try different things. So we'll definitely be looking at you know that's the other one to the gooseberry goes this summer. It won't be because we goes, I'm afraid, but it it will be something good for me to try new things.
Speaker 1:It's fine.
Speaker 2:Otherwise I get held up on them and I'll never move on so something kind of pretty and sour, and I'm kind of interested to kind of look at the sort of the isotonic properties of beer and could, could you know understanding more what what that aspect of the liquid look like and what we could do more there and uh, and more collaborations as well, that's. That's kind of a really fun thing to do, to work with different breweries, yeah, and I think, to see more draft in more places, and I think what's great now is that we're able to do some just small batch cakes, so to increase that variety of different styles on our particularly within edinburgh local craft beer pubs and tap rooms. That's going really well nice.
Speaker 1:Well, I look forward to seeing more liquid coming from scotland down to birmingham very soon, hopefully brilliant. I can't wait to try that. Um, the nitro stout and whatever it is you release in the summer. I'm sure it's going to be amazing thank you, thank you, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2:Hopefully we'll sleep better when we're brewing it this time yeah, once you've done it, once it's fine, isn't it?
Speaker 1:you know you've, you've done it before. Just just copy and paste it. Nothing could go wrong, can it? Yeah?
Speaker 2:finally, yeah, brilliant, all right.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you so much for the chance to chat no, thank you for for coming and um and giving me some of your time. It's um, it's been really interesting and really nice to talk to people that actually make this stuff and kind of demystify the process a little bit. I mean, I'm still baffled as to how it all works, but it's still interesting.
Speaker 1:So thank you very much you're welcome thank you for listening to this week's episode of the sober boozers club podcast. My name is ben gibbs. You can find me on all the socials. That's sober boozers club. For more information on jump ship, go and check them out on their website. Get yourself a can of that stoker stout extra smooth, because it has since been released and it is banging a really, really solid stout. I really enjoyed it. I think you will too. You guys, take care and I'll catch you very soon.