Sober Boozers Club
The Sober Boozers Club Podcast is brought to you by Ben Gibbs - Alcoholic. Since 2022 Ben has been sourcing and enjoying the best alcohol free beer the world has to offer and has been documenting these beverages during his sobriety journey. Ben has worked alongside craft breweries, bottle shops and sober activists to raise awareness of Grey Area Drinking and to help spread the word on the growing market that is AF/NA beverages, becoming the face of the Alcohol Free Beer Club and featuring on many podcasts, as well as securing a number of features on BBC Radio. In 2024 Ben became the first alcoholic in active recovery to win a British Guild Of Beer Writers award for commentary on beer. This podcast features experts from the Beer world, as well as Alcohol Free breweries and sober activists as we explore the world of Alcohol Free beer and sobriety.
Sober Boozers Club
From Finance to Mash Gang: How Socks Led to an Industry Revolution
What happens when an accountant develops a passion for alcohol-free craft beer? In this candid conversation, Ben Gibbs sits down with Roger Tattersall, former CFO and co-owner of Mash Gang, to explore the unexpected journey that took him from corporate finance to revolutionizing the alcohol-free beer industry.
The story begins with socks – yes, actual socks – and unfolds into one of the most remarkable success stories in the burgeoning world of alcohol-free beverages. Roger shares how a simple purchase led to joining the tight-knit "family" at Mash Gang, where he helped transform a fledgling startup into a brand that would eventually secure an industry-changing acquisition deal.
Beyond the business insights, Roger offers a refreshingly honest perspective on his personal relationship with alcohol. Despite not identifying as sober or teetotal, he hasn't consumed alcohol in two years – a decision he ranks among the "top three life-changing things" he's done. This nuanced view of moderation and mindful drinking reflects the evolving attitudes that are reshaping the beverage industry.
The conversation delves into the economics of creating exceptional alcohol-free products, the critical importance of branding (Roger estimates 50% of beer enjoyment comes from packaging), and predictions for where the industry is headed – including more draft options in pubs and the challenges of the current economic climate.
Whether you're sober curious, in recovery, or simply interested in the business of better beverages, this episode offers valuable perspectives on how non-alcoholic options are transforming from stigmatized alternatives to celebrated choices in their own right.
To find out more about the wonderful world of alcohol free beer and to check in with me head to www.instagram.com/sober_boozers_club
This episode is not brought to you by any sponsors because nobody wants to sponsor me.
This is the Sober Boozers Club podcast. This podcast, we're going to talk to people from within these circles and find out a little bit about their journey, so you sit back, relax and enjoy. Today I'm talking to my very good friend, mr Roger Tattersall. Now, roger is one of the former owners of Mashgang. Prior to their recent acquisition, he was the chief finance officer and he knows an awful lot about alcohol-free beer. We talk about it on a pretty regular basis, so it made sense to have a good old chat with him. I really hope you enjoy this episode. I've missed that voice. I've missed that voice so much.
Speaker 2:How are you, mate, I'm really really well. Thanks, Ben, how are you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm pretty good. Yeah, I'm pretty good, I'm pretty good. I'm waiting for a delivery of a hose pipe to connect to a power washer at the moment because my drain is blocked out front of my house, which is just doing itself.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm um, I'm the son of it. Well, there's a story here. I did be barren and you know I'd be getting someone out to do that, to be honest, but well, I did first time around.
Speaker 1:Right like this. This drain, it makes no sense. It's like a weird little right angle that goes underneath the driveway, not underneath the house, it goes underneath the driveway and it just shouldn't exist. Um, like it's been done really poorly. So I did hire someone to come out and do it first time around and all they did was they just fucking put a power washer down the um, down the grate and just yesterday, trade it for 15 minutes and I was like, well, I'm just gonna the drain care ben.
Speaker 2:To be honest, I think that's yeah, yeah, it's like just maintenance in it drainage industry already?
Speaker 1:yeah, so what? What your top tips for um clean and healthy drains?
Speaker 2:uh, keep your fats, oils and greases away from the sink and your golden and you know, keep as few wipes as possible from going down the toilet, and then you'll be fine. Then there you go.
Speaker 1:Well, thanks, that's all I needed, mate, so have a good afternoon. Catch you soon, yeah, so for people that might not know who are you and what on earth do you?
Speaker 2:do? That's a good question. I'm Roger. And what on earth do you do? That's a good question. I'm roger. Uh, and until very recently I was part of a non-alcoholic setup called mash gang. Um, I am an accountant by trade and I largely played the role of cfo for mash gang, although, let's face it, we all did everything there. So did everything from designing cans, labels, writing copy to actually, you know, doing the stuff that a CFO should do, budgeting, all that sort of thing. And, yeah, I guess I sort of played more of the boring sort of behind the scenes, faceless role, which suits me just fine.
Speaker 1:The person that was saying, no, we can't do that, it's too expensive. Basically, yeah, how did that like come about that? So did you. So you said you're an accountant by by trade. Yeah, how do you end up working for one of the most exciting independent alcohol-free brewers in the world?
Speaker 2:the? Um. The short story is socks um, but I'll take right, sorry, um. So yeah, I mean I started my career, you know, like you're doing one of the big four accounting um businesses. I went to pwc and did all my sort of big exams. There was flogged for a few years, you know, worked hard um, and whilst I was there, I, you know, I tried to do sort of business development um, you know they like you to get out and meet businesses and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:But at the same time that's when I was really getting into drinking craft beer. So I was like, well, hang on a second, there's something really cool I can do here. I can basically pretend that I'm gonna go out and sell to these brewery business, whereas really all I'm doing is just going and having a bit of a jolly and meeting all these breweries. So I kind of started my love affair with, uh, with beer and craft beer and got to meet um people like um christian at north brewing, um, when he had set up um rick verhouse at magic rock um, and you know people like that in the area, and just went out and spent time with them, um, so that sort of got me a bit of a taste for the industry, and it was at that point where I sort of knew, look like I was, I would love to do something here one day, and it was this sort of entrepreneurial flair to me, but to be honest, I was probably too scared to do anything about it. Yeah, um. So, yeah, a bit of time passed and you know, I didn't want to be part of the sort of big corporation anymore, so kind of moved around a couple of times and, um, cut my teeth in various sort of senior financial positions in businesses, um, and there was still that sort of itch to be scratched from the entrepreneurial side of things. So anyway, yeah, fast forward.
Speaker 2:Um, to the lockdown. And I was, I had my first born and I found myself seeking out lower alcohol options. Um, and I'll never forget, I was perusing the Northern Monk website, as you do, and there was this cool 0.5% gummy worm sour thing, yep, in Gary's Busy Army, and I was like, well, what's this? Let's have a bit of this then. Uh, bearing in mind, during lockdown, I was drinking quite a lot of beers as well. So you know, I was ready for a bit of a change. I didn't, you know, know, I was feeling like I'd had enough of beer for that time. You know when you, when you have many of you listeners, know, when you have kids, all of a sudden the hangovers hit harder, the sleep's more important, so you kind of need to be a little bit more on it, don't you?
Speaker 2:when you've got a, I look after you yeah, yeah, yeah, so, um, so yeah, I was like, okay, well, let's have this and and got it. And I was like this is fucking amazing, who? Who was like who's this collaborator with it? Mash gang. Okay, cool, let's, let's kind of look up who they are on instagram and this mash gang was probably around a year old, maximum, this time maybe less, maybe like six months old or something. So, yeah, I kind of found them, was like right'm going to order some stuff from them as well, and then from there just sort of started interacting with.
Speaker 2:I never knew which member of the gang I was talking to. I assume most of the time it's probably George Um and sort of just chatting to them. Then they did that first sort of crowdfunding thing they did and I was like well, was like well, you know, I've not got loads of cash, but here you go, here's a little bit. And, by the way, if I can ever help you with anything, you know, do let me know. And they were like all right, cool, didn't really think anything of it. And then they released those bitching socks that they released, you know, the green. And yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because I was like fucking having some of these, um, and kind of got chatting to them about socks, and then that was when they were sort of like, oh well, like you said, you could help, like you know, what do you do. And I was like here we go, like this is, this is where it ends here, because they're going to realize I'm some boring finance guy and I was like I'm actually in finance and, and no joe, like we still have like copies of the messages now.
Speaker 2:George replied and was like look, I'm a pretty, pretty blunt guy and you know, anyone who's into the podcast will know that about george. Yeah, you know. And he was like you know, we really want someone to come and sort of look at the numbers and the finance side for us, like you know, on a part-time basis, you know, whatever could that person be, you, um, and at the time I was in a job where I wasn't really working loads of hours and I felt like I had a bit of spare time. My wife was doing a yoga course on an evening, so I was like yeah, I'm in, let's do it and that's it, that's it.
Speaker 2:I met James after that and, um, and he was like let's do this, and it sort of just snowballed from there. So at first it was only supposed to be a couple of hours a week probably, and that snowballed into pretty much working 30, 40 hours a week, as well as my other job for them towards the end. Um and yeah, like the, the rest is is history. And from there on just got involved in everything and, um, you know the best uh sort of best sock conversation I've ever had in my life, I'd say I've had socks and they were great.
Speaker 1:My wife still wears them now it's funny how, like a lot of the stories around mash gang, it revolves around that. So how did how did this happen? It's like, well, we were talking about pizza or we were talking about socks, and it's just kind of everything just seems to have fallen into place in the most ridiculous way, which could only happen for mash gang yeah, absolutely, and you know it's it turns into.
Speaker 2:You know, obviously there was already, uh, four or five guys there to begin with. They were obviously close already, but very, very quickly, you know, we were, we were pouring together at hop city festival, uh, at northern monk, and from then on you just become this, this family, and and all of the guy, all the rest of guys, just have this ability to make you feel like you're part of the family, which feels a bit weird to say, but it really is a real family vibe going on there and I think that's what made it work. You know you fall out like your family as well, but you know, good times, like your family and, um, yeah, just a really special experience and, you know, come out of it with, uh, yeah, family, family and friends for life. Two years later, yeah, yeah, you know, and obviously we're all still in touch now, but, um, yeah, absolutely amazing, best two years of my life, um, spent, spent there.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, sometimes you think I wish it could have been a bit longer, but, um, just less than two weeks ago, I had my second born. Yes, congratulations. Felt like the time was right to, uh, yeah, to probably take a little pause on that so I can focus on that, and obviously, after the uh, after the sale happened, yeah, yes, yeah, it's matt when you think about that, that time frame in terms of where they are now headed, mash gang.
Speaker 1:Obviously we don't know what the future holds, but the the deal that went through is a mass. It's an industry changing deal, um, I think. And yeah, take it from where it was two years ago to where it is now. That's huge yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think, if I think back to what, like, I remember how much revenue we did in the first month, uh, how much sales we did, and I'm just gonna just tap into my calculator now to see how many more times sales we did in the final month, and it's like it's like 800 or something like that across across two years, which just shows the growth and and you know we'd had higher months than that as well. I mean, it's um, it was serious, serious growth. And you know, I like to claim that I was the catalyst for that, because it all started going up when I joined, but I don't think that was the case. I think it was a case of, uh, right place, right time, um, but yeah, I mean, obviously my finance skills were quite useful. You know, it was a case of um, I suppose some of the less sexy part of business, you know, figuring out how much things actually cost us, um, figuring out where we were doing stuff, where it was actually losing us money, uh, so?
Speaker 1:were you technically, if you were to, if we're talking about how much things cost, were you technically the person that got rid of the cherry stout and then subsequently bought it back?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, actually no, but yes, because I suppose my influence of we can't keep spending this much money on making stuff because we have to make this thing called cash and profit Then, you know, rubbed off enough on people that they were like, yeah, we can't do the cherry style again. However it, it absolutely was, um, me mainly, who was really pushing to bring that cherry style back, and you know well, you've got nothing to lose now, right, like, yeah, exactly, and and also, like you know, it's based on cherry prices as well and they do fluctuate, uh, but yeah, I think also, if you look at when we first made that, compared to where the business was now, like, the cost structure was a lot better as well. So when you got the volumes and stuff, it becomes more cost efficient to sort of do those things. But we were making some stuff, um, you know where we weren't making any money. We were losing money on it. But there was some stuff we did and you know you're willing to lose some money if it's something which really stands out. Um, and you know, like, for example, you know, I think we've always been, we were always pretty open about the fact that those subscription boxes um, actually lost money for the business for the first year, um, and then, even when we put that first price increase up and we were worried about the backlash the backlash was actually not a backlash I was very supportive. Everyone was like I can't believe we were getting it this cheap before. You know, we totally get it. And even then we were only really turned out to make a small amount of profit because really it was about getting beers out there to people and doing stuff that we love doing.
Speaker 2:But equally, the mantra always was you know, a lot, some businesses don't don't necessarily run this way, but we wanted to be profitable as soon as we could. Um, you know, we wanted to make sure that we could. You know, no one took crazy money out the business, but we wanted to make sure that people who were working the business full-time able to pay themselves. Yeah, and equally, we were able to pay our suppliers, which, you know, early days in the business is is harder. Um and was was a real struggle when we first, you know, got there. But as we sort of moved through um, we got a lot better at doing it. We weren't perfect, we were sometimes late, but you know, we knew what business we wanted to be, um, you know, from a financial point of view, uh, and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, we knew what business we wanted to be. Um, you know, from a financial point of view and stuff like that, um, you know, and that's what we worked towards and everyone was really united in that. But in doing that we kind of, you know, we didn't sort of strip everything back and cheap out and stuff. It was still about having the, the top quality, um, you know, ingredients and everything like that that we could put into stuff and go in the extra mile. But we'd also, you know, swashbuckle around areas and, you know, find ways of getting a certain quality for less and you know, similarly, having there wasn't that many of us for how much, you know, money. We were sort of mate, like turning over really, you know, and you had people, people like me, doing stuff that you probably don't really want your accountant to do, but, um, they me and I learned pretty fast, I think that is like one of the things that that people loved about the, the business.
Speaker 1:You know you say like, working there it was a family, but that's very much what the, what the vibe is from the outside as well, like I know from experience. Yeah, like immediately as soon as I can remember the day that mash gang followed me on social media and from then it was like okay, I'm just chatting to my mates and it felt like that and it's not just me that forgets that, you know it's the whole me that gets fat. You know it's the whole community.
Speaker 2:Well, you've met them. I mean, you know how different a person on the surface am I to pretty much any of those guys really, and that's the funny thing about it. You know, everyone's a bit different, everyone's a bit odd. I don't think anyone will mind me saying that, and I, you know, I like to think of myself as a bit odd as well, and I think that's why it works. You know, there's a lot of um, a lot of oddity going on, and it sort of just mixes together into something, something beautiful and powerful yeah, I think you, you speak to people that like people feel like they're understood.
Speaker 1:It's like, oh look, when I stopped drinking alcohol I didn't want you know, I've spoke to alex about this um, I didn't want to drink these clinical like oh, you're a naughty boy, so here's a nice clean drink. And then you find mash gang and it's like fucking snakes and schools.
Speaker 2:It's like, yeah, okay yeah, cool, exactly, I, I used to be the cool, the cool, you know, middle-aged accountant dad, drinking from the thinking, from the snake, the pink snake can, which you know I had something to do with designing as well, which also very cool. But you know, I, I wanted to be the cool person drinking from this cool can. That's to be, and and I do, we always. You know I really do believe that in any product, but especially in in, you know, craft beer, 50 of the battle is what does the can look like? And just want that in there to be seen with that in their hands, or someone want to pick that off.
Speaker 2:And 50 of whether you're happy with beer, in my opinion, is actually what it looks like before you even consume any of it. And we always sort of played around with, you know, that being a key point for us. So you know, and, and it's very rare that we missed on the branding, get the branding right. And the liquid also was great. But you know, half your battle done. You can make the best tasting liquid in the world, but if you don't make it particularly compelling from the outside, yeah, if no one's drinking it.
Speaker 1:No one's going to tell you how good it is, are they? Yeah, exactly, exactly. The business started at the perfect time. Obviously you discover them during covid because you say you're, you know, cutting down on drinks. Obviously that was also because you'd had a child. But I think a lot of people kind of developed this relationship with alcohol during covid where afterwards it was kind of a right we need to, we need to cut back a little bit.
Speaker 2:I think. Um, you know, I think if you could go back I would maybe want to have started the business. I wasn't there to start, but if I would, you'd probably have liked to start the business maybe a year, a year and a half earlier, just so you could be in a good place. And if you look at businesses that are slightly older, so like lucky saying um big drop is a bit older people had days like they. They almost got that jump on the market from being sort of first entrance into the uk market, but equally they sort of paved the way for that next iteration, um, and I suppose that then allowed the opportunity yet to take full advantage. And I do think that sort of lockdown period really did help to change people's views on alcohol. Um, you know I I don't consider myself um sober or teetotal. However, I haven't drunk alcohol for two years, um, because so that was.
Speaker 1:Another question was are you still on with?
Speaker 2:it. I am still on with it. But you know it's one of those things where it's not like I have this intention of. You know I'm not gonna drink alcohol, it's just when I get it.
Speaker 2:I think when you break that link in your brain that really is there from a young age in you know, in british culture is you go to a restaurant or pub and the first thing that you think is all right, what am I, what am I drinking, what bit can I have of this menu? And even when I go to the pub with my friends now it's a restaurant you know they'll all be like scrambling, saying, well, what beers are we going to have when we get in there? Whereas for me now, that's actually not the first thing that crosses my mind. I think once you break that link and you realize that there are good options for non-alcoholic beer out there and I'm a lot happier now driving my car, being able to leave whenever I want yeah, different uber and drinking various different non-alcoholic beers when I'm out, as long as I know I'm somewhere where there's something good. And I mean the great thing now is mashdown is increasingly in more places as well. Yes, along with, you know, along with the other beers.
Speaker 2:I like to drink non alcoholic beers. I drink when I'm out as well, and but the availability is is so much better, so it really wasn't that much of a change. Also, I clearly wasn't paying, you know, really paying anything for the mash gang beers because there was plenty that needed sampling for quality control. So, you know, naturally I kind of slipped into that only drinking non-alcoholic beer and honestly, you know, I feel a lot better for it. So I'm not gonna, you know I don't consider myself t total, but equally I will never go back to drinking more than, at most, a couple of alcoholic drinks on an evening, if I ever do that. To be honest, and I would say, you know, making that change is top three life-changing things that I've done in my life to make, say I really didn't do that that's mad, it's.
Speaker 1:It's interesting. I think I've spoke to a few people that are not alcoholics but are living sober at the moment, um, and they all say the same thing. It's like oh you know, it's a difference, and it's crazy, when you start living like this, how much of a change it really makes. It's like shit. Why didn't I do it sooner?
Speaker 2:the thing for me is, having been and like you as well, you know, but obviously it's a bit different for you, I suppose, as an alcoholic, because I was a wreck, I'm not an alcoholic. I don't think I'm an alcoholic, you know. But obviously it's a bit different for you, I suppose, as an alcoholist, because I was a ref, I'm not an alcoholic. I don't, I don't think I'm an alcoholic. Um, you know, I think I had a relatively healthy relationship with alcohol, but I think the version of myself when I'd have had a few beers certainly wasn't as good as the sober version.
Speaker 1:I think anyone is really. You know, like it is a, it is an it. It is intoxicating, it does alter how we are and you know that can be wonderful and it can be terrible absolutely, and I think you realize the times when you thought it was wonderful weren't quite as wonderful as it was.
Speaker 1:As well, rafi, yeah, when you try to explain a drunk story to someone that didn't, it wasn't there, you know. Oh, and then, like, this guy got on the table and and this thing happened, and then a song came on and uh, yes, right, yeah, that sounds, that sounds tragic. Yeah, I know.
Speaker 2:It is, isn't it? That's the realization. So you know, I mean, look, I'm, I'm having people who want to drink and can drink safely, can you know? Sure, yeah, man, and for me that's the thing. You know, being such an enthusiast for craft beer, if there was something really, really special put in front of me at the bar now and I was like fucking hell, I've always wanted to try that beer and I've never had it I probably would try it, I'd probably have some of it. I probably wouldn't drink all of it, but I would probably. You know, and I think that's a happy, happy medium place for me to be if I want to do that.
Speaker 1:That hasn't happened yet. Preaching to the choir here. I think all alcoholics. There is a mecca that is moderation, and we all want to reach it. None of us ever will. It's too late for us.
Speaker 1:This is how I know I'm an alcoholic. I'll be laying in bed at night and I'll go. If I had a pint now, like a real pint, I reckon I'd be fine, like I really don't think that I'd ever drink again, but I don't know, so I'm never going to. And you don't want to risk it right? Well, for me, it like it nearly well. It did it ruin my life. Like you know, I have a disease. You know some people don't have that disease and they can moderate.
Speaker 1:Those are the people that I think, in terms of natural selection, they're the people that should survive the apocalypse. God, that's bad for my brand, isn't it? It's like everyone that follows me. I think we shouldn't make it. I think we shouldn't make it. But no, mindful drinking and drinking in moderation, I think is the future of the industry, because I think it has to be like people that are in recovery deserve to have their recovery and to be able to have all of the good options that exist, I think, for the industry to grow, we've got to be targeting these people who just want to cut down and don't have a problem with alcoholism yeah, that's eloquently, certainly for the next, for that sort of um millennial generation coming through.
Speaker 2:I mean, they. It's hard to verify what you see in data sometimes, but, um, I did. I did see something earlier that showed the amount spent on alcohol by generation and the Gen Z amounts, and obviously some of those people aren't old enough to drink yet, but were significantly lower than those generations before it, so clearly it is reducing. I don't see a world in the future where no one will drink I don't. But I't see a world in the future where no one will drink, I don't. But I do see this world of moderation and I think if I had a bar or a pub, whatever you know, I would be really focusing on having that wide selection of alcohol-free beers, because more and more people are going to be after them. Not just alcohol-free beer, though, alcohol-free everything spirits, you know. Hopefully. I believe that wine will have big things in 2025 and will come on.
Speaker 1:I really hope so, hope so it's.
Speaker 2:It's been very poor, yeah, um, I mean there are some good ones now keep keep them coming along, like all these options. But yeah, the wine thing needs to improve in my opinion.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm with you, yeah, yeah, because I've only ever I mean, I don't really look for it because it's historically not been very good I've only ever had one really good red wine and it was um naturio. You can get it in sainsbury's and waitrose, of course you can um, yeah, but that was. I was in some like five-star hotel in Wales and I've told this story before, but the chap came over and he had a big old handlebar moustache and they had a five-star wine, whatever award. I was like if I'm ever going to have a good one, it's here. So I ordered it and it was like, oh yeah, that's nice, but still I get a bottle of it and it sits in the cupboard for about six months, but still, like, I get a bottle of it and it sits in the cupboard for about six months and I think, um, yeah, red, red, white.
Speaker 2:Of all the alcohols that impacted me most adversely, I'd say red wine was something I'd wondering anyway, because red wine drunk was. It was a whole other level. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I I was never.
Speaker 1:I was never sick on alcohol ever, which shocks a lot of people but I never got to the point of a thrower, except for once when I was very close, and that was red wine.
Speaker 2:I was a big sicker when I drank it. A big old sicker. Yeah, I'd just casually wander off to the toilets, have a little sick and then carry a tactical chunder. Yeah, king of the tactical chunders, really. I just didn't really think any different, which probably worked better in some ways. At least I was getting it out of my system. But I prefer a sober sign if you're doing that.
Speaker 1:For me, I preferred cocaine. I found that really sober.
Speaker 2:Beautiful, didn't you? Yeah, I didn't really get into that stuff to be bad, but I can see. I can see why that might have been a trigger.
Speaker 1:It was like could go and throw up, could do some coke, I think I know which one I'd rather. Maybe that's why I did so much sick, you know. Just not enough cocaine. Yeah, man, if you ever do go back to drinking, man, like welcome to the sober boozers podcast. I think that all alcoholics should be called off and you should all go and get some cocaine. Basically just cancelled myself until yourself. Yeah, in epic. Well, recording one. I don't know if this will be episode one, but jesus, anyway, back to beer, that's well just before I go back to beer, go on.
Speaker 2:So do you find that you drink other stuff that is non-alcoholic, that isn't beer like? Do you? Do you have spirit? Do you find yourself drinking spirits? Are you mostly just a beer guy?
Speaker 1:literally beer I'm beer, beer, beer, um, to be honest, all that I drink in life now is black coffee and beer, which is basically an alcoholic's dream, right like. That's just what I live on is coffee and beer. Occasionally I'll have um a little glass of water if I have a headache, and that's it. Um, I've recently got into a particular brand of cider and that is um chance clean cider. I think that is incredible. I'm yet to try it, but I will be be trying it. It's so good, I was so impressed.
Speaker 1:It was similar for me to we Can Be Friends. The first time we Can Be Friends messaged me. It was like who the fuck are these guys? They just appeared from nowhere with 40 followers on Instagram. I didn't know Sam from Brewing before. I didn't even know that it was called Sam Behind it. I just knew we can be friends.
Speaker 1:Nothing really behind it. Can we send you a sample? And I was like, yeah, you can. And in my head I was like is this going to be a bit? Like, is this going to be really shit? And even I messaged George. I was like have you heard of these guys? Like do you know what? What this is? Because I was really not paranoid about drinking stuff. But, like with alcohol free you can't get it wrong. Right like that, you can drink something that could make you incredibly poorly if it hasn't been done properly. So, yeah, it's something that's crossed my mind as someone that will drink anything and everything. So when they sent me stuff, it was like I opened it was like, oh, I don't know how this is gonna be and it was fucking incredible, but one of one of my top five beers of all time we can be friends.
Speaker 2:First one just shout out to sam and we can be friends. I mean, they um I'm I'm really glad to see them. You know, taking on the collabs now and everything that she now is is really great. And sam I know sam from when we collabed at mash gang um really really great guy as well. But yeah, those beers are are excellent, and I find myself um sneaking back time and time again to order more.
Speaker 2:I just wait until he's built up enough collabs from all the various um to get a few of these at his site and then sort of fill myself with a, you know, maybe a four, maybe a 12, and I keep. I mean I, I probably have, I mean you probably have just as many, but I probably have 80 beers in my garage that need drinking at the moment. Yeah, say, maybe 90 of them are mashgang that I just acquired over time and you know taking stuff back for sampling quicker than you can drink it, especially because obviously we moved the brewing operations to Leeds and I'm based in Leeds and the brew cheese Five minute drive from my office, so I just go and get the underfills all the time.
Speaker 1:It was great. Yeah, I'm the same with like. I've got two fridges right. I've got a um, I've got a two film fridge and I've got a to to drink like, just enjoy fridge. The to drink and enjoy fridge is just full of like we could be friends and mash gang primarily, and the amount of times I have to like force myself not to just go and get one of those. And so I know, ben, you've got like, you've got like 35 beers to film like. You need to drink one of those ones instead of the ones that you know you like and I like the content creator. Yeah, it's like. I mean, it's really not. I shouldn't really be complaining, because it's literally just me stood talking to my phone being like oh, here's beer, mmm tasty, and you do it very well then.
Speaker 1:I don't actually know anything about beer. Really, that's the thing that I find just funny about this whole thing.
Speaker 2:But that's probably what works, isn't it? Because I think most people who drink beer don't know that much about beer yeah, that's it, it works.
Speaker 1:That's it. Like I've always seen my not my job, but my the reason for my existence online is just to say this beer exists. It's a hazy ipa. I think it tastes a bit like this, I don't know, but that's my opinion. You want to buy it? Yeah, like, it's up to you. It's just to say, like, look at all of these breweries that exist. You know, you can have a stout, you can have a sour, you can have a chance clean cider which is delicious. You can have, like, all of these things you can have and still be sober or still be cutting down on your alcohol. Yeah, you know, that's my whole vibe.
Speaker 2:Like, I started the profile because I didn't feel like there was a space for me within the world, really, and I assume the more popular you get Ben, the less beer you're buying as well, and the problem of having lots of beers to try rolls into something even bigger.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and like it's what a nice problem to have. Yeah, it's a very nice problem to have, but it's also like there's a few that have been in my fridge for so long that I look at the best before and it's like if I was six months ago.
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, I mean this is, I think there's a late, so I keep them in my garage because they don't all fit in the fridge. I've got the garage, um, but yeah, I've kind of got like a layer at the bottom, nothing's popping, which is good, but I know when I get to them, like there's some stuff like you know, um, some stuff I'll get to, and it's kind of nice to see how beers have lasted over like 18 months. So, um, and, and that's quite interesting, because we use different mash, can we use various different um sort of preserving methods over over time that you can see which ones work better than others? And so, like the vault city bears that we did, um, you know, we were using a different thing in those two ones that we were making at fierce, for example, and the preservative was actually slightly better in those. So they would be good for like 24 months, whereas for a year the hot flavor starts to go.
Speaker 2:Maybe you get a little, you don't get. You don't get a greater re-fermentation, but you maybe get a little bit more froth in in the can and stuff like that after the best before date. Um, so, yeah, I mean it's interesting to see how they react. Um, and then some beers, um, that I've had in time, that I've sort of left for a while.
Speaker 1:I've opened and have just been explosive that is something that I've really loved about mash gang historically is you know when things do go wrong or when things have gone wrong, because of course, things go wrong, you know, you, you know about it, usually from jord as well, and it's like, yeah, all of this deer exploded, we don't know why, but this has been pushed back, and it's like, and people are like, yeah, yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, classic At the bottom of any email, you know it says we make good and that was the thing. And you know, chris, shout out to Chris running the sort of the customer service side of things. That was a huge part of focus for the business. It was doing right by customers. If something wasn't right, putting it right and being open about things will go wrong sometimes. Yeah, you know the, the main faces that you'd see on that. You know george, um, and then alex and chris you probably hear from from a, you know, uh, customer service point of view, just being honest about stuff and and putting things right.
Speaker 2:If that was the case and I think that's that's all I want to see from any brand really. You know, for example, I bought some Beardor recently a random Instagram purchase and a while to get here and it turned up and it's in this shitey plastic-y little bottle and I'm just going to have to go back to them and be like guys, this is not what I paid for. It was nothing like the picture you sent me. See how they react, but part of me feels like they may just ignore me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, most likely, which is least. I think it was just a perfect formula for MASH Gang. I think everything about it, it just hit every mark that you wanted it to hit. The liquid was amazing, the people there hit Like the liquid was amazing, the people there were amazing, the branding was amazing and it just it ticked every box.
Speaker 2:And it still is, and that's the thing you know, and I think that's the good thing is. What I'm really looking forward to is the quality is better than ever now and there's a lot more process going into that, and what I look forward to is, you know, being able to get it more widely, even though I don't have a favorite yeah, yeah, that's so.
Speaker 1:That's like. That's a good point actually, because I've been, I've been talking about them in a past sense almost like and now they've gone, but like, really we're talking about mash mash gang like 1.0. When we talk historically, we're talking about how did mash gang become.0. When we talk historically, we're talking about how did mash gang become a brand that is now ready to become a real key player in world beverages. Absolutely, yeah, what I mean? You probably have more insight, but what would you like the future to look like for them?
Speaker 2:I said um sort of when, when we did the deal. What I really really want, you know, it's the legacy that's important. I want to be walking into a supermarket in the UK, let's say, or not even a supermarket. You know any bar in the UK or you know any bar in the US, any grocery store in the US, and I want to look on that shelf and see Chug or whatever there and I want to be able to turn to my kids and say that was me. I was part of that and I think that's what I want to see.
Speaker 2:And I want good beer available to everyone. I want good beer available to everyone and there are, you know there is increasingly good beer available to more people now. And you know we see in the industry more people. You know some of the early adopters into the industry sort of making moves as well, which is great to see, sort of making moves as well, which is great to see. We're hopefully going to start seeing a bit more um alcohol free on draft, because there's nothing better than um a nice pint when you're you know when, when you're in the pub. Um, the great thing about leeds at the moment is um kirk still have virtuous um alcohol free in a lot of the pubs so you can have a nice pint when you're out and about. You can sometimes get a lucky saint pint as well, um, but like you said before, ben, I think there's. It does feel a lot better when you're able to have a pint of something in your hand rather than it's a authentic pub experience, isn't it?
Speaker 1:that's all that's. As a non-drinker who drinks like an addict, like that's. That's what I want. I want to be able to have something in my hand that is a beer. I want the the pub experience. You know I I always preferred pints when I was going out, even when I was a big drinker. You know, I love fancy craft beers, but I can drink a can at home. Yeah, you know, I can't. I can't get it in pint form at home.
Speaker 2:So so if I had to put it in my face when I come into the place, you know I want and you know that MASH Gang will do some really cool sort of tap handles. I want to see anyone like if you're going to be on tap, get yourself a cool tap handle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's going to be a snake wrapped around a piece of wood, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Like I'm just putting that prediction out there now, I mean look at, like when you go out to the States and you go into the bars, like look at all the amazing tap handles they've got. And you know, one of the first US breweries that I was really obsessed with and actually met this guy when we were at Hop City, which I fanboyed over him was Dogfish Head and like his story is, you know, he was hand-whittling these tap handles, um, you know, out of wood into like this, this dogfish shape um for for the bars it was going to, and he was like doing it by hand to begin with because he wanted to get noticed and like I don't think the tap handle game is strong enough in the uk. I think it needs to be better. There's probably a reason for that and, you know, I'm sure people will inform us if that's the case, but it needs to be better. In my opinion. I need better tap handles in my life.
Speaker 1:I think it's a massive part of it, isn't it Like all of that? It's the kind of it's how going for a drink makes you feel and I'm not talking about intoxication here, but it's like everything about it. It's like the ritual. Yeah, it is a ritual, and I think drinking is a ritual, and I think drinking is a ritual, um, which can be quite dangerous, but it can be wonderful as well. So when we've got more I'm not going to say healthy options, but like more positive options in terms of alcohol then, like that ritual can can be a wonderful thing. So I think that is it is something that I want to see.
Speaker 2:Out of all the beers that you like to consume, Ben, which beer would you most like to see on tap?
Speaker 1:Oh, that is a question I think, like there's two. You've got to go down the banging lager route and then you've got to go down the like, smashable, like oh this is, this is delicious. Like I'd like a we can be friends beer on tap oh yeah. So if I could, if I could do my, my, my dream lineup right, I would have low life or stoop. I'd have any of the we can be friends beers, because I think they're bangers.
Speaker 2:Um, have you had them stoop light yet? Not yet. No, um, this is like if stoop and low life and cheap lager had a baby together.
Speaker 1:There you go um, so this isn't me, uh, this isn't me calling him out at all. Alex said we'll send you some American imports for January. I was like all right, legend, so I'm not going to buy them yet, because I've got about two pounds left in my bank Because all the fucking breweries release beers in January. So I've kind of waited and I think next week I'm probably just going to order some, because he sent me that like ages ago. And then, like it's just busy, isn't it? And I don't. I hate being like, hey, you know those beers. Like I'll just be like, yeah, yeah, if you want, like if you remember, that's fine. I feel like Alex probably still is the sort of person that will try to do the work of like 50 people. Oh, yeah, a, I reckon that that must be so hard to to stop, like once you've been doing it for so long and it's been like your entire life, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was the um, that's been the difficult thing for me, I think and you know, thank god I had a kid to kind of take my mind off that, because going from that like height, you know, all that intensity down to I'll just have one job now and it's you know, it comes with its challenges, of course is, yeah, yeah, the massive change I was like. So what am I gonna? What am I gonna do all this time I've got now?
Speaker 1:yeah, I bet that isn't like. It's like the quiet after a after a massive fire, um, a good fire, you know, like what. What happened was was amazing, um, yeah, but so beers on tap, I think. So we've got the, we can be friends. We've got let's, let's say, stoop light, okay, that's. You know, it's a. It's gonna be a solid lager, like, I trust, jordan's lager, enough to know that that's going to be a banger. I've put colt there, um, I've put colt over chug for me because I think it's just more easy drinking um, and I'm talking about, you know, for the wider world. Then sober brummie stout, I think would have to go in because I think as just a base stout it's just amazing.
Speaker 2:The base stout for Lesser Evil, by the way, was so good we considered actually just releasing it as just that.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean they should do a base stout. I think, like a special, really, really special Lez or Evil is awesome. I've never been a big stout guy. Do you know what? I mean? The kind of donut stouts and all of this? I've never, even when I was a full-out drinker.
Speaker 2:It's just not my jam, I think the best stout that I've had recently just pure sort of dry stout was uh number two. Uh, yeah, two from from um five points and um, yeah, I should know this.
Speaker 1:It was in my fucking beer box. Yeah, I was trying to. That was a really really good start. Very good. Do you know who have um nirvana just put out a milk stout?
Speaker 2:and they've also just announced a night. Prefer stout. Yeah, I'm waiting for that to arise. See that one, because I think they they seem to really up their game reason.
Speaker 1:You know what nirvana? I think I've said this to you. I think nirvana are one of my breweries of 2024. Purely because and I don't mind admitting this I used to find their stuff I don't want to say middle of the road, but I could take it or leave it I think it was really important. Nirvana existing was so important because when I stopped drinking it was them Mashgang, a few other breweries it was nothing else.
Speaker 2:It was really popular in Indian in like indian restaurants, which was great. So you were getting in your restaurant, you could have a nirvana, and I remember I remember the first time I had nirvana and I was, I was really impressed by it.
Speaker 1:Actually, uh, I do think, um, yeah, they were a bit middle of, maybe a bit middle of the road at one point, but now what I'm seeing is is they're sort of really jumping on and the free beer has been incredible that they've released recently, like I did for I did for lemon lager and then they did the um, the wheat beer, and then they did just like a standard lager or a hells. And I I thought in my head when I got the hells, like okay, we're gonna go back to like base level nirvana beer. Now yeah, I like was like drinking a German, like a German Hells. It was damn delicious.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I really like that they do offer 0.0 and 0.5 as well, Because I know some people don't want the 0.5. You know, I personally without going into banana related arguments, you know think that 0.5 is fine personally, but some people don't and I think it's quite clever to be able to offer both. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, For sure. I mean I'll bite my tongue on the 0.5 argument because I feel like it's like I'm going to etch that onto my tomb. It's the same as a ripe banana, like the amount of people are just like actually tomb. It's the same as a ripe banana, like the amount of people are just like, um, actually it's still got alcohol in. It's like homeless. But god, I mean you have to be right. Okay, be gentle with people, because they don't know, because you didn't used to know, like I didn't used to know, that 0.5 was I mean, this has always been one of my a gripe to you know, many regards is okay.
Speaker 2:Well, if I go down the orange juice aisle in a supermarket, why is all that not saying not super centric? And people, 0.5 alcohol, etc. Etc. Like you know, I I just don't really. I guess it it's probably because it's a, um, an impersonation of alcohol that you're doing, and maybe, yeah, it's like if you're brewing something, that you're doing it to a desired strength.
Speaker 2:If you're brewing it to 0.5, so you're intentionally producing a little bit of alcohol is what is my yeah, it's very diffuse, for sure, and the laws and regulations around it, you know the guidance aren't particularly great anywhere, I think. I think there's a lot of, still a lot of education.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the word, isn't it? I think it is. It is about education and like, like I say it's not, not in a patronizing way, no, like not to say, oh bless you, you don't know about abv, like, because I didn't. Before I stopped drinking out, ironically, before I stopped drinking alcohol, I had no idea about what ABV kind of entailed. The higher the better. Oh man, my favourite beer of all time was a Brewdog and Evil Twin 11% Nitro Stout Imperial Nitro Stout.
Speaker 2:Now what's interesting, I think, ben, is if you look at there, two, two ways of looking at this. But I think beers above six or seven percent are ruinous for the alcoholic beer industry in some ways. Because well, on one hand, if you look at all the best rated beers on untapped and if you're a sad nerd like me, you'll spend time studying that because you'll want to see, okay, well, what's the best like non-alcoholic beer. Well, you know, etc. Um, they're all you know, triple ipas, imperial stouts, all that sort of thing around the 10 mark. So people really really rate them, or at least they think they do. I'm not completely convinced. Anyone really does enjoy drinking a 15 beer, but I didn't. But each to their own, um, but they get the best, best rating. But the thing is, if you're going to a bar and drinking 15 beer, you're not having more than one of them. Are you well? You'd hope not. No, oh, I'm well.
Speaker 2:I did once. I, I once, um. I once went down to um a lurvig night that was on at um, at the north taproom. Leads and magic mike, who I believe is, and the owner of lurvig, was there and I was introduced to him. Um, and that's all I remember, because I had a lot of six, seven, eight plus percent stouts that night, I didn't even score and I remember where the next day, but yeah, some special stuff they were doing there.
Speaker 2:But yeah, that's the thing, if you do have like too many, like you do forget. Whereas if someone's going to drink well, let's say someone's going to drink 5, 5% pints, the equivalent of that is probably, like you know, two and a half, 10, 7 pints, the, the equivalent of that is probably, like you know, two and a half, seven pints or something like that. You know, you know you're not gonna have more than that and I know that the bars charge more for that. But I I just think sometimes, like if you only make those beers, you're never going to sell the volume, volume and I'm not encouraging people to binge drink here, but you know, I just think sometimes you're kind of doing yourself out of some of the volume a little bit on it as well. Whereas if you have five percent beers or four percent beers and also a really good selection of alcohol-free beers, people can zebra stripe their way all the way through, can't they.
Speaker 1:Zebra striping is my favorite thing at the moment. Like I think that is that's got to be, I think, the future of of drinks you know what the cool kids are calling their ben, don't you know?
Speaker 2:the extra cool kids like me go on. Oh, you know, once you, once you've been using zebra striping for long enough, you kind of progress to calling it zipping, zipping yeah, okay combination of the two words what all the cool kids are calling it right, I'm gonna write that down and I'm gonna use I yeah, that's gonna be my.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna start like a zipping. Doesn't really fit into a month, does it? I can't start a dry january thing, that's impossible I think zipping also sounds a bit like drug related it does.
Speaker 1:It does very much, so that makes it even cooler, right? Well, yeah, of course Drugs are cool. So my thing with we're talking about like the high ABV drinks kind of being not redundant, but you know, like missing a trick a little bit. I am kind of thinking or I've been thinking this for a while with the growth of low ABV drinks, like I don't really see a place for a table beer anymore, like a three percenter. It's just an argument. Is my thing is right? If you're drinking a three percenter, everyone, or most people, would drink a three percent beer. Do it knowingly, they do it for a reason and that is for three percent abv. And my question is now what's the fucking point if you can get a 0.5?
Speaker 2:that is better than a lot of these free I mean historically, a lot of these were actually around that level, like in the past um, and I think it's an interesting one because I look at um. You know how well small beer curve doing in the last year, for example, and some of the stuff that they make and I'm actually like they're making good stuff and I think you can, you can get. There's probably some things you can do with a beer and you know I'm not a brewer I'd have to ask you about. But you can probably do a little bit more with a beer if you're able to. If you put more abv into there, you can do a little bit more. The quality becomes a little bit easier to achieve. Yeah, however, like what you said, I do think yeah, there's surely a point where the two become so close together that actually just go for the 0.5.
Speaker 1:yeah, if you, if you're trying to drink mindfully and you're like, well, if you're driving or whatever, and you're like, oh, I'll just have this three percent or two and and 2.5%, just go all the way If the flavor's the same. That's what I'm interested to see. What will happen to it's for table beer.
Speaker 2:I wonder if moderation in itself pushes people more towards that middle ground as well, though. So people think, rather than drinking a load of 5% and a load of 0% the night, what if I just drink 3% across the night? God, it's a minefield, isn't it? And I remember when micro IPAs, or whatever they were called, when they first came out, you know, came out, and I remember Magic Rock did a really, really good one at about 2.5% and I was like all that flavor they managed to get into into two and a half and I was really blown away by it at the time. That was really before the low movement came along, and, you know, gotta shout out the the og as well.
Speaker 2:The kernel table beers were always unbelievable to me before table beers became, you know, trendy as such, um. So I think that I mean, if you can, I think there's a craft in doing. I can appreciate the craft in sort of making that and, you know, maybe it's a nice mealtime beer, um, for people who can. But yeah, I definitely accept your point, and I've always, I've always sort of said myself playing devil's advocate to you know anyone, um, who's saying, oh well, why don't, why don't we make like a two and a half percent beer, I'm like, yeah, but where's that? Where is that category?
Speaker 1:it's almost like it's going to get stuck between yeah, others, and something eventually falls away yeah, because, like, if my, my, my thing has always been if you're drinking beer because you like beer, then the abv doesn't matter to you. So, like if someone wants to have a beer, but they're driving, so they go for a 2.5 percent, it's like, let's give you, okay, have your 2.5 percent, here's a 0.5 percent. Taste them which one tastes nicer. Yeah, if the 2.5 percent tastes nicer than by you know, okay, you do, you hun. But if the 0.5 percent tastes better, then just for that little bit of abv, you're drinking it because it's got the alcohol in and because you feel this is it when you're having a beer, when you have alcohol, and we think it's a stigma that we're breaking and this is, for me, all I want in anything you know, full out, non-out, whatever.
Speaker 2:I just want the best quality product I can have. That's what I want, something that tastes nice, and that's why. That's why I like to drink various different beers and I would like to try the range of things, and the experience of trying different things is what I'm after. So and I I like to think you know the optimist in me would like to think in the next 12 to 24 months we get to a place where the vast majority of people aren't actually even looking at you know, I'm particularly bothered where it says 0.5 or 5 on on a beer, that they're seeing a beer on a menu and thinking that sounds delicious. I'm going to have it for those that can drink. Obviously, if you only want to drink 0.5 beers, you're not going to do that, but you know, going the other way, I wouldn't like to think that that's where things get to and and it just becomes, you know, just a number, um, and when we, when mashgang put that beer into morrison's um in jan 23 or whatever it was, he specific said to them we want you to put this in the um in the full abv aisle, because we don't see this as being, you know, an alternative in terms of it's a lower abv. This should be. Here's a beer that you'll like the taste of if you look. You know, don't worry about the fact it's 0.5, and I would really like to see it get to that point.
Speaker 2:Um, one time when I go to a bar now and you know, increasingly I probably drink slightly less beer because I'm finding other things that I like and if I go to, if I see a bar that has, um, the pathfinder on, which is a sort of hemp-based spirit, I'm there. That's like my favorite Now. On a Friday night I used to have this vice, which was a bit sad really, but I'd sit down with a couple of beers that I'd get from a bottle shop, and a Jägermeister and Red Bull was my thing I mean, who's drinking that on a Friday night at home, mate? But I just loved it. It was my favorite drink and that was one of the things which I really sort of missed when I was putting these down. But Pathfinder and ginger ale, get a nice bit of lemon in there and thank me later. That's something special. That's my new favorite drink now and that's what I find myself Friday night, I've got myself some fancy spherical ice makers. Ooh, nice little whiskey tumbler and that's what I have now on a Friday night.
Speaker 1:That's it, man. We talk about these rituals that we have. It's just a little treat to ourselves, isn't it? Yeah, the whole drinking experience, this is a nice thing for me, but I'm going to do now and I think that's the most important fundamental of a nice beverage- Well, I mean, let me ask you a question as well, ben.
Speaker 2:You know people are not getting political, but it seems like in the next 12 months, people are going to feel, um, the pinch on their pockets a little bit more, um. Do you therefore think that you will be doing more drinking from home in the next 12 months? Do you think people will drink from home more than 12 months, or do you think that people will still be keen to sort of treat themselves and get out to the bars and enjoy themselves?
Speaker 1:I think, like from all research, like since covid, like home drinkers it's it's grown ridiculously really, um, I don't see that changing because I think it's just so available and like almost the point of it being problematic if we're talking like full ABV, I think that, like, I think people are going to pub is always going to exist, I think, because I think people want pubs to exist. It's just you mean the social pub names, yeah, yeah, like, and I think after lockdown it proved that we need that social engagement. But I do think that you know, again, without being political, like the hospitality industry is on its knees and something's got to give. I don't know what that is like, I'm not, I'm not ever going to claim, but I know the answer to that um, I I think there'll be winners and losers.
Speaker 2:I think people will always go to the bars. I think if you can make your proposition more compelling than others, then you'll win and there'll be some consolidation. There'll be some unfortunately, a chunk of the leisure and hospitality industry that that will disappear, um, but there will be winners from it as well. Um, but I think if you are, you know, if you're a brewery, um, and you do have, uh, bricks and mortar sites as well, if you're not contemplating, you know your direct to consumer um right at the moment, then then you probably want to, because if people are gonna stop spending it in your bars, then they may well be spending it at home instead yeah, that's a very, that's a I see the segue there and it's a very.
Speaker 1:That's a very valid point. Like, especially with, like, how, with. How many beers have come out in January? I know it's all alcohol-free, but how many beers have come out in a month? It's like I need to try this, I need to try this, I need to try this, I need to try this. If other breweries can crack what Mash Gang cracked, how many beers did you release over two years? Did you release over two years? Um, so, like, you've got people that have tried every single one of those beers and they're drinking them at home, you know. So there is a. There's a massive market for it.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, like the uh, like the sub box, that you, you know, you you curate yeah, yeah, like and it's.
Speaker 1:It's almost difficult to pick eight different beers every month because there's so many that come out. I mean, looking at my page and Martin Dixon's page, alcohol-free World, I mean he's over 1,500 reviews now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's special, isn't he-free beer. Well, his beer.
Speaker 1:I'm not even going to say alcohol-free beer. He's knowledgeable about beer. I mean, he's one of the people that made me go oh, this place exists, like this world of alcohol-free drinks exists.
Speaker 2:If you're not following that page, what are you doing with your life?
Speaker 1:Got to get up on it, yeah, like he is the oracle, gotta get up on him. Yeah, like he's.
Speaker 2:He is the the oracle, he would say like the, the, the og of the alcohol-free beer world. He, he, his, his reviews are so good that they will change my opinion of a beer. Yeah, he shouldn't, but they do. If I think, oh, I'm not sure about that, then I'll go and try that beer again and so, calling out, I gotcha, yeah, I think he's right and also just an exceptional human.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like such a good guy. Um, yeah, I can't. I can't praise him enough like he is. He's I'm. I'm lucky to be able to call him a friend who's nice. So briefly, without giving anything away, because obviously we can't, but where do you see the whole industry being in 12 months, do you think?
Speaker 2:I think, um, it will be stronger. I think, um, for the low alcohol. Yeah, I think, I think that it's going to continue on its upwards trajectory, so I'll call. Yeah, I think that it's going to continue on its upwards trajectory. I'd like to think, I do think that Guinness Zero going on draft is going to create a bit of a stumbling block for some of the independent brands, but I would like to think that it opens up the opportunity for pubs to see that they do want to be getting more taps for AF on in general and I would like to think, by the end of the year we're seeing, um, you know, a lot of a lot more options on sort of the, the tap handles for throut. Call free.
Speaker 2:Um, I think there'll be new entrants. There'll be people who who leave the market as well, because it's incredibly difficult out there. It's costing a lot more money to pay people uh, you know it's not got any cheaper to, you know, pay for your energy as a business, etc. Uh, you know, costs only going one way and inflation's going up, so there will probably be some casualties. Um, hopefully nothing that I'm going to miss too much. Um, and yeah, and you know, I think, a little bit new entrants as well. I mean, I don't I don't know if you see this, ben, but there are some new entrants to the market on that I see on social media and I'm not sure if actually it's just a bot and ai, those ones I don't think are going to survive, um, because I just don't think they're compelling enough.
Speaker 2:I think you need to have a compelling story and mantra in an ever-growing like, in an ever-growingly saturated market, which it's sand out exactly, or you've got to have, you know, someone with a lot of clout behind them, like uh bero in the us with uh mr holt. Yeah, yeah, that was just ridiculous. I mean, that's good. If you can get an a-list of celebrity onto you, you know, on your books then then that's probably a really good plan actually for selling your beer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, if I ever decide to do one, that's what I'll do.
Speaker 2:Just get a really famous friend to do it. Um, but yeah, I do. I think you know there'll be people, people like that and people come in and, you know, really ascend, but on the whole, um, you know, a rising tide lifts all ships. So I think that's the key thing. If everyone keep building on it, making making the good stuff for me to drink, then I'll be happy and I'll continue to sample everything that's sort of coming out. But yeah, if people could just chill a bit more for the rest of January, that would be great because, yeah, like I'll just just spread them out over over 12 months.
Speaker 1:That's all I want and like I mean, I understand it, but but I hope that some of these beers become core range, like you know, like juice for scythe. Let's have that all year round, alcohol free, because they, these amazing beers that have just been released during january, give it me all year round yeah, and stuff like yeah, juice for cyphers, you know was a fantastic um beer from from brewyard.
Speaker 2:When they first released it I was a big fan of the name, big fan of the beer. Uh, yeah, I would hope that the um baf version of it is. You know, it is good that I haven't of it is good I haven't drank it yet. I've got it in the fridge. My first attempt was it, loris, I think that was okay.
Speaker 1:I did Loris and no Cloudwater was fresh. I did Loris, and was it Blue Jay?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I may have missed that Brew York Blue Jay was Brew York. I just can't remember if that was a full ABV one.
Speaker 1:It's a lager. That was Blue Jay, wasn't it? Yes, I think that might be. It's alcohol free and it was Fine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so hopefully, juice Boss. If you're going to make an AF Version of something as good as Juice Boss, you've got to make sure it's good. It's like, for example, club Tropica NA Not Not wanting to shit on them, so you've got to make sure it's good. It's like, for example, um club tropica na not not wanting to shit on them, but is is a fucking terrible version of of full tropica, which was loves of of um. You know, craft beer was really disappointing when it came out like and I think there's nothing worse that you can do than that you might as well make it a new brand to do it yeah, on the other side of this, um, old peculiar, is it all peculiar?
Speaker 1:I always get all peculiar and proper job mixed up. You know, I'm talking about proper job. I'm talking about proper job. Um, so I'm going to do that bit again and say, on the other hand, proper job is probably the best beer that you can get in supermarkets, in my opinion.
Speaker 2:Now, yeah, original proper job was, was the real start of my nerdery for for craft beer as well. Um, I remember vividly having that like a sampling of them. But yeah, I haven't tried the af version of yet, but I will, but I will.
Speaker 1:It's so good. It's so good and I don't know if I'm just going to be jaded on it, but from the first time I drank it to the latest time I've drank it, I love it. I love it. I think it's incredible.
Speaker 2:I want to see availability, you know, in supermarkets. You know consumers. I want to see availability in supermarkets, consumers. I don't want to see supermarkets be an exact mirror of what you can get on a DTC website. I want there to be slightly more reduced range in a supermarket, but I want to be able to walk into a supermarket and pick up something a little more crafty in a supermarket if I want um, you know which is going to taste good. Yeah, I'll always have guinness zero from a supermarket, but I don't really buy a great deal of pale ales from the supermarket at the moment. However, I will definitely try and pop a proper job um from there. And, yeah, I want to see more, more availability. I don't want to see all the skews of someone in a supermarket, but if I grab like one or two skews from a, from a brewery in the supermarket, that's yeah. I, I quite like that. I know some people don't like the idea of that, um, but I think that's good overall.
Speaker 1:I think, especially in terms of alcohol free man like, the more availability, the more accessibility, the more you're promoting it, because, although it's about people enjoying a drink, there is a sector of this industry where it is. I mean, I've said alcohol-free beer did save my life, like hands down. There are going to be some people who are in a similar boat. So, actually, like it, it's a really, it's a really important liquid. Yes, stuff like even if it's even in a hundred, a thousand people, yes, still, it's still such a big thing. So equally.
Speaker 2:you've got to look after your bottle shops as well, though you know we've got those beautiful independent businesses, and that's why that's why I say I would never. I would never have pushed to have you know with what mash gang was when I was. I would never have pushed for us to put everything into a supermarket. If we're going to do that, it would have been one or two skews maybe, especially made supermarket skew for that, to enable the bottle shops and all those other businesses that support to still have stuff that you know you can only get in those locations, and I think that would be my preferred strategy for that. Yeah, I know some supermarkets want to have it all. Some supermarkets only want to have a couple of SKUs, some supermarkets want to have it just for them, but I do think it's important for the movement in general that it is available as widely as possible, and part of that is supermarkets it's a fine balance, isn't it, between the ready available and the bespoke.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's.
Speaker 2:It's very hard to crack all of it yeah, I mean, no one's gonna put, um, you know a, a peanut butter, jelly, tuna, fish, sour in a supermarket. You know no one. I'm going to say that there'll always be a place for that elsewhere and for your more niche stuff. But you know a plain drinkable, uh, you know single hop or dual hop, pale ale is. Is is specifically made for a supermarket, even if it's just got different label or something and one slightly different ingredient. You know that's a good thing for a supermarket.
Speaker 2:I think you can go and get what you want there. If you go into you know you go into a barbecue and you've not had a chance to go to, you know you've run out of your favorite beers at home, you just swing by and get that on your way and it's, you know, beers that you otherwise wouldn't have got. I think that's good, um, and that availability and just for it to show people what's there. But I think it's important. I do think it's important for now for the alcohol free section to be distinguishable from the alcohol section in the supermarket, even though when we put a beer into the supermarket mash gang, we tried not to do that. But that was an experiment and I think I think for now, if it's gonna really grow, I do think it needs to be kept separate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, let's go to it, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, like separate but not clinical, I think is my yes, my thing. It's like I want to be able to find it if I'm looking for it, like I don't want to be sifting through, sifting through, sifting through. Also, I don't want it to be like this big blue badge that's like alcohol free.
Speaker 2:There you go, here's for you and it's like a complete other end of the shop.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've had to go into a bread section.
Speaker 2:They love to put a low-alk in bread section.
Speaker 1:have no idea why, it's just weird it's really weird, like I'll never understand these people. Well, roger, thank you very much for for this chat. It's been, to be honest, it's been overdue, like we. We chat on a weekly basis, we do, and I'm glad that that's continued. You know, post your, your stepping away from from the gang, because it is, you know, the friendships that we build within this kind of industry that are really special, I think absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, you know, and you're always part of the gang as well, really, and you know they they won't get rid of me that easily, but thank you for having me, ben, it's been interesting.
Speaker 1:I think I've learnt so much from talking to you about how the ins and outs of the business and you've always got your finger on it in terms of watch out for this. This is being released soon. It's like, oh really now. It's just been a pleasure to converse with you. Lovely, you too, mate. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the Sober Boozers Club podcast. My name is Ben Gibbs. You can find me on all the socials at Sober Boozers Club. I'm not going to tell you where to find Roger, because he's got a young family and that would be a bit weird, wouldn't it? But if you're interested in getting yourself some mashgang tins, I couldn't recommend it more. I couldn't recommend it more. Head over to the website. Get yourself some beers. Have a good time. Until next time, my good friends.