Sober Boozers Club
The Sober Boozers Club Podcast is brought to you by Ben Gibbs - Alcoholic. Since 2022 Ben has been sourcing and enjoying the best alcohol free beer the world has to offer and has been documenting these beverages during his sobriety journey. Ben has worked alongside craft breweries, bottle shops and sober activists to raise awareness of Grey Area Drinking and to help spread the word on the growing market that is AF/NA beverages, becoming the face of the Alcohol Free Beer Club and featuring on many podcasts, as well as securing a number of features on BBC Radio. In 2024 Ben became the first alcoholic in active recovery to win a British Guild Of Beer Writers award for commentary on beer. This podcast features experts from the Beer world, as well as Alcohol Free breweries and sober activists as we explore the world of Alcohol Free beer and sobriety.
Sober Boozers Club
Crafting Clean Cider: John Logue's Chance Journey
What happens when a seasoned beverage industry veteran decides to revolutionize the alcohol-free cider market? In this fascinating conversation, John Logue, founder of Chance Clean Cider, takes us behind the scenes of creating what might be the most authentic British alcohol-free cider on the market.
Having cut his teeth at industry giants like Diageo, Rekorderlig, BrewDog, and Lucky Saint, John identified a glaring gap in the non-alcoholic space. While beer, spirits, and wine had seen quality alcohol-free alternatives emerge, cider – the UK's third largest drinks category – remained woefully underrepresented. Drawing on his extensive experience, John embarked on a three-and-a-half-year journey to develop a cider that would stand on its own merits, not just as an alcohol-free version of something else.
The conversation delves deep into the technical process of creating alcohol-free cider – from starting with high-ABV traditional cider, to the careful blending with concentrated apple juice to restore body and flavor after liquoring down. But beyond the technical aspects, John shares candid insights into the challenges of launching a beverage brand: securing investment, navigating production partnerships, establishing distribution channels, and building a brand from scratch. His refreshingly honest take on founder life reveals both the thrilling and terrifying sides of entrepreneurship.
What emerges is a compelling vision for the future of drinking culture – one where quality non-alcoholic options help sustain our beloved hospitality venues by giving people more reasons to socialize without alcohol being the focal point. The "permission" to enjoy sophisticated, adult drinks regardless of ABV content is reshaping how we think about social occasions. Whether you're sober, sober-curious, or simply looking to moderate your drinking through "zebra striping," this conversation offers a thoughtful look at how our relationship with alcohol is evolving. Fancy taking a chance on something new? Your next favorite cider might just be alcohol-free.
To find out more about the wonderful world of alcohol free beer and to check in with me head to www.instagram.com/sober_boozers_club
This episode is not brought to you by any sponsors because nobody wants to sponsor me.
This is the Sober Boozers Club podcast. This podcast, we're going to talk to people from within these circles and find out a little bit about their journey, so you sit back, relax and enjoy. Today's episode is a little bit of a wild card, because we're not talking about beer, can you believe it? We're talking about cider. In particular, we're talking to the founder of my favorite cider company in the world, john Logue, who is the founder of Chance Clean Cider. They came into the market very recently and, to be honest, completely blew me away, so it makes sense that me and him should have a little chat. John hello, thank you very much for coming to talk to me today. I'm really excited to have you on this. You've released the best cider I think I've ever drank.
Speaker 2:Well, well, I mean, if I wasn't already a fan of yourself, it's gone through the roof. But yeah, thank you. I mean I don't. I don't stand on top of the apples and and do any of the technical stuff with an amazing producer, with aston manor, but yeah, the, the kind of strategy, the taste profile, all the r&d was all me. So up until the point my son said this morning in the car he was like but you make cider, daddy, and I was like someone else does it who's much better at it. But yeah, we're really proud of the liquid and you know the uh, the kind of plaudits we've had in the imposter syndrome that you live with as a even with the experience I've got, you know, you do just think maybe your dad and your mate will buy it and it's been really cool yeah, like I'll.
Speaker 1:I'll admit I don't drink that much cider because, I'll be honest, the stuff gives me indigestion. So when you, when you reached out and you said, like can I send you a couple to try? It was like okay, and it's always like I don't really know what I'm talking about with it, but I drank it and I was like shit man, this is close, as close to the I'm not going to say the real thing, but it's as close to alcohol cider as I've ever got. You don't get any of that. It's not overly sweet. I mean, it's sweet enough to be delicious, but it's not overly sweet. It doesn't feel like a child's drink, it doesn't taste like just apple juice.
Speaker 2:It's complex and it's damn good stuff thank you and, like you know, the the elephant in the room is that when you remove something whether it be sugar or gluten or alcohol from a very like something that you've had a lot of experience with, there's a hole missing and you know, to try and get as close to it, feeling like there is alcohol in there. There's a lot of things we've done to try and help that, but yeah, that's. You know, that's the ultimate thing. Oh wow, I thought it had alcohol in it. Oh wow, it tastes like cider, like job done.
Speaker 2:Let's not over complicate things. As a marketing person, we just want to give someone an experience that they might historically have had in an alcohol occasion or an alcohol drink without alcohol in it. One of the things not to jump ahead. But the reason why we called it clean cider is because the factor of it being low-alc or non-alc, depending on which way the wind's blowing in terms of our government and the EU, it's just one of it's gluten-free, it's vegan, it's British, it's all 100% apples.
Speaker 2:It's low-calorie, it's low-sugar-ish, because cider is quite high in sugar anyway, I'm not making out it's low sugar ish, because cider is quite high in sugar anyway, I'm not making out it's. You know kombucha, but then one of the seventh factor is that it's low alcohol. So the fact that that is one of a load of other things we wanted to try and encapsulate, of it being this slightly new style of cider, not just like defining yourself as it's got no alcohol in it or it's low in alcohol, because we're all on that journey of trying to change the, the mentalities of people around that language and you know, with my experience in it, you need to help people along changes in behavior, not just expect them to come on the journey with you yeah for sure.
Speaker 1:Like why? Why cider? So what was it that made you go? Okay, I want to do this cider and really pursue that. I mean, I know you've got a lot of strings to your bow, but what kind of put you onto this? Where did it all begin?
Speaker 2:It's. I mean, there's a marketing story and there's a category story and there's an owner story and I guess the very short one is that I love alcohol and alcoholic drinks, from like Guinness to wine, to whiskey to cider. I've been very fortunate to work in a lot of different categories, um, but I was having an occasion where I wanted to have a low outsider and there just wasn't one for me, which then you go. Most people go, oh, I wish they made one. And then, with my background, you go well, I could probably work out how to make one. So it was absolutely just a me search of me going if I want to have a non-art beer, or I want to have a non-art guinness, or I want to have a spirit mixer or an aperitif or a wine. There's some really good solutions out there and there's an increasingly from when I came up with this project three and a half years ago to now, my God, the category is incredibly. There's not even a difference in my opinion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's dense, but then in cider I was kind of looking at it and my background I was at Recorder League for five years around the world and we had reduced sugar and removed alcohol as a project. And then when I was going in with that site test, I was just seeing flavoured ciders as a non-alcoholic option with Copperburg and Recorder League, and then you could scratch the surface and find some apple ciders, but they weren't prevalent. And I loved Aspel, I love Thatcher's, I love Hawks, but I also love Somerset ciders and I was kind of going wow, if I could just have like an Aspel's non-alcoholic or Thatcher's non-alcohol. So it purely was me. And then, speaking to a few friends, it was like, well, there's got to be a few more than just me.
Speaker 2:And then I'm very lucky to know people in the category in the industry and a few just kind of like shots across the bow, like what do you reckon? And then going, yeah, like there's a massive hole. Then you do your research and you see the third biggest category in the country is cider and it's massively underrepresented. And then you start to look for why those reasons are. And whenever I was in my investment conversations the biggest question I would get is like what's your biggest fear? And I'd be like there's someone down the road with this thought because surely I can't be the only person who's doing it. And actually, as we've got more into the development, there are a few great non-appsiders, but they might be french or they might be of a sweet profile. And again I was just kind of going like we make brilliant british apple cider. It's 70 of the market share. Here we are. It's so far, so good. I met that guy down the road with the same idea. So before that what?
Speaker 1:what was it that you were involved in? Obviously you hinted at recordling, but what? What's your kind of history in the field?
Speaker 2:So after I was told by my parents to get a proper job after being a non-commercially successful musician, shall we say I was pretty good. I just didn't make a lot of money. I just desperately wanted to go to Australia after going to my mate's wedding there and there was a company called Addiagio. I knew they had Guinness and Bushmills and I thought, oh, I can probably get to Australia with a big company like that. So I worked at Diageo. I learned a lot about it on the way, but it was there for seven years and my final year was in Australia. So I went to work in customer marketing in Australia and then, through music, ironically met the guys who take recording around the world who are culturally marketing because it's all made in Sweden but it's kind of licensed through a marketing business and joined them and had, as I said, five years, ended up as head of innovation for them. So I was working on lots of these kind of new flavors and pack formats and cocktail cans and just trying to like diversify this bubble of flavored cider. Had an amazing time.
Speaker 2:Next job was to go back to Australia or Sweden. I didn't really want to do that and for personal kind of life, changing married and the kid come in and brewdog knocked on the door. So, um, I went to work for brewdog for three years, worked on the af project there, worked on I was head of customer marketing. So, again, working with the founder, working an innovation space of like flavored cider, if you remember, after the magnet effect was just wild like copperberg and herring, gore and record league, and then going to craft beer when that blew up was just fascinating to be a part of. Left brew dog, like everyone does in a interesting way, very interesting way. Went to work yeah, went to work for a really cool company called atom brands, own master of malt, but had marketing. Really enjoyed my time there. And then COVID hit and, just like most people, we just sat there going like, what do I actually want to do? And at that time I was helping mentor some younger sort of marketeers and one of them was in the Lucky Saint business. So I went to work for Lucky Saint. Right at the beginning I was head of marketing there. And again, again, yeah, you then get this kind of like, okay, founders, category growth and because I'd done AF at Brewdog, done AF at Recorder League, was working in customer with Lucky Saint, you just have this like real understanding of it before everyone else, because there's plenty of amazing customer marketers and marketers in whiskey, but in non-art, because it's so young, there's not many of us have been doing it this long. So I left there and went to work as a consultant for three years Still am.
Speaker 2:I still do a little bit on the side, but initially was working for Distilled Ventures, who are, you know, dsgo's, innovation, seedlip, all that kind of amazing stuff. I didn't work on Seedlip, but I was in that area and just kind of found myself going and, through the help of a mentor, just going. Surely you can do this like you get paid to help people do this. But even at that point, with all that experience and all the excitement and all the kind of connections you still go, there's still stuff that you've never thought of, like raising money through investment. That's a whole new world to learn. And then, um, you know, production. I've done plenty of innovation and plenty of platform that changes.
Speaker 2:But then getting someone to make a cider for you and then ship it somewhere to be bottled and then put it on a pallet off your own money it's, it's been thrilling, but it's also been and that's kind of, not that I have a huge following on my tiktok, but my tiktok is not really about chance cider per se. It's about being a founder because I kind of thought like it would be amazing if someone was just going. It's kind of like what's going on and a lot of I'm pinging around here, ben sorry, but like the name Chance has a brand rationale for it. But also it was about that mate in the pub who goes, oh, you know what I'm going to do this next year and they never do it. So it out. That mate in the pub who goes, oh, you know what I'm gonna do this next year and they never do it. So it's like, well, I took the chance to do it. So a lot of how I speak on linkedin and in that tiktok environment is very much like balls out going.
Speaker 2:I had a shit review on amazon like what do you do? Like what the hell is scis? What's going on with? You want to join a route to market but you've got to fill out these new line forms, like today. The reason why I couldn't jump on earlier was because a pallet hadn't arrived. My new big distribution company called breaks it's the biggest route to market distribution in the country and for food. Like, no one teaches you that logistics bit though. Um yeah, my background has been inspiring and brilliant, to kind of get to the stage it's at, but also there's always things that you have to learn on the job. But that's kind of the cool bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, as you were talking then it reminded me of pretty early on into my journey into this world as just someone that shouts on the internet holding a bottle or a can in his hand. After about maybe a year and a bit I was like I should do a beer right, like I kind of know how I would get to market now, and I just I googled it like because I've got no idea, and after about five, minutes.
Speaker 2:It was like no fuck that.
Speaker 1:That's like. I've got no idea how to do this. So, yeah, that's. I mean, having been around the industry for so long and having seen all of these brands and being a part of these brands, obviously we won't go into BrewDog, but you know to then take that next step and go right. I'm going to do all of this and then be hit by a load of other shit that you wouldn't have thought of beforehand. Like it's not just the liquid, is it?
Speaker 2:it's everything surrounding that liquid yeah, and I vividly remember I was doing a project for a client in manchester called hip-hop and I was walking down the road and I was speaking to my side of producer and it was at that stage of like, got the money, like we can buy the liquid. You have to buy quite a lot because, like, they don't just make you 20 bottles and I was kind of chasing some information about the, the packaging part, so obviously you'd make a liquid and then you have to do things to it to get it into a bottle, like carbonate it, um, pasteurize it, because there's no alcohol in it, all those fun bits and they basically just dropped this bomb and said we're really sorry, we can't actually run you on our 330 ml bottling line. And I remember putting the phone and saying, can you make my cider? And they were like, yeah, you'll just have to get it bottled by someone. And after me initially lying on the floor for five minutes in the middle of Manchester and getting back up, I thought, okay, well, I can speak to some people and I can understand how this works in front of people. But I instantly then had this moment, maybe a couple of days later, going. Imagine, like I didn't have my experience and I'd got walloped by that. There must be so many people out there that get hit by these sidewinders that they've just got no kind of experience to kind of manage it. And yeah, you know, I've got so much respect to it.
Speaker 2:But there's also this kind of thought that maybe, if someone is thinking about doing it, I'm really really positive about founders all being quite close because we're all very similar.
Speaker 2:We're all a bit mad in the way that we want to do these things, but we're all right at the beginning, very isolated. So we had like a founder Christmas do on part of this really great group called the Lonely Founders and again, it's just that almost like support group for these guys who I remember right. Like it's like being in a band, like you've got to be on the PR trail, you've got to talk about everything's going well. You're on LinkedIn, blah, blah, blah, and then you might like press send and then sit back and go how do I work FBA for Amazon? Or how do I work out the margin for shipping something into a supermarket versus? So yeah, I'm very again like very grateful that I have the experience, but also I'm very open to speaking to people to kind of suss it out and I've got so much respect for someone who maybe was, you know, a butcher and decided to launch a beer.
Speaker 1:Not many crossings of um experience with the the creation of an alcohol-free cider. I know a little bit about what goes into making a beer, you know. I know water, hops, yeast, malt, etc. Mash, boil, whatever they do. Like I understand that cider I've got no idea. Like I know it's got apples in and I know it's not apple juice per se. How do you create that? And then what's the process like to make it alcohol free? You can tell. I don't know what I'm on about, but you probably know and, and you know, the biggest cider market in the world.
Speaker 2:You know we used to make cider and give it to julius caesar to go back to rome like we are very good at cider in this country. But I think the word cider encapsulates so many things, from like perry to baby sham, to record leg, to chance, to somerset grumpy. I think that kind of helps. So you know it's it's not a silly question. Basically, cider is when you take the juice from an apple and you ferment it to create cider. Very similarly, when you take the juice from a pear and you ferment it, you get get peri or pommier, I think is the other one. So the technical term is really simple in the fact that you are creating alcohol through the sugars of the thing. In the same way vodka comes from grain and whiskey comes from beer. That you basically then all that kind of stuff. What we do and there are a few different ways to do this we have a very high ABV cider, so we have a cider that is around between sort of 8% and 10%. So what they do is they, when we make cider it only happens once a year they squish all the apples technical term and then they basically produce the cider at that point and then what they're able to do is cider lasts for a long time. So we have a two-year shelf life.
Speaker 2:But with the process we have, they take this very high abv cider and then they cut it with water, which is called liquoring down. Exactly the same principle as when we talk about guinness. So guinness is produced at up and then they liquor it down with water and whether you believe the myth or not, the water counts right because it's the lefe water, it's british water, but it's all the same water. When you have a cast strength whiskey, it's's produced, it doesn't stop at 41%, it will come out at whatever it wants to, and then they use water to chop it down. So we liquor down Because we have effectively diluted that cider down. There's a lot of properties that are missing Because obviously you've taken a lot of the body out Like cordial. You mix it down if you don't put enough in.
Speaker 1:I'm glad you said cordial, because that's exactly where my brain went. It was like oh, it's like a cider shandy.
Speaker 2:So I'm glad you said that I don't feel so silly now.
Speaker 2:I don't drink tea. My wife drinks a lot, she's Irish. But milk in your tea Put too much milk in. I don't taste tea anymore.
Speaker 2:So what we do is, when they remove a lot of the heat, they use heat to remove a lot of the water from it and that basically produces a concentrate. Now that's not a negative word, because I know you can go to the shop and see bitty orange juice and concentrate orange juice, but effectively it's just the juice that hasn't been fermented either naturally or with yeast, and they remove it and it basically becomes this really viscous, really like sticky, like thick juice. And what we do with that is we use it to put back into the cider, which has obviously lost a lot of its abv because of the cup of water and effectively give a load of body back. Now, because I wanted to have a cider which was quite dry and had some slight notes of, um, so woody notes, we use one of those juices that the high fructicordial back in to almost use a bit like a whiskey would. So whenever you blend whiskeys, you take lots of different whiskeys and you blend them together to get your final taste profile. So we effectively have a cider that we remove the ABV by putting water in or de-alkalizing through liquoring down. We then blend in this really bittersweet juice from bittersweet apples to get us that taste profile.
Speaker 2:So whenever someone says it's basically just apple juice, well, it was in the same way that a chip used to be a potato. We've done something to it and it's. You know what's the difference between hot water and beer? Well, one has alcohol in it. 100% British juice, 100% British apples. We make a cider, we just do that process. There's other things you can do. So some people can then remove the alcohol through heat evaporation or rotavapping. Or what you can do is you can effectively not be a cider and you just put cidery flavours in. That, you could argue, is a juice. But we're not. We're a cider and we just remove alcohol by dilution effectively and then blend back in that really great taste profile to give that body back I can't even begin to get my head around what that looks like when you're doing it from scratch like it's.
Speaker 2:It's mad but that said, it's very doable, like you can. You can just get out there and have a go and as long as you are, I think, making sure that you're financially sound, that you aren't like lay up at night going. I sold this final palette like I would encourage anyone to have a go at these things, especially with the onset of stopify and, dare I say, ai and and amazon. You know it's. It's not as hard back in the day you would add like build a brewery and, you know, open a bottle shop or try and speak to tesco's. Now the can, like the ability to be a founder, even things like etsy, where I bought, you know, your c-shirt for a minute. You know, like people can have a go at stuff and I think it's. It's such a thrilling kind of world to get involved with. But yeah, I'm thankful every day for the hard knocks that I've got to be here.
Speaker 1:Something that resonated with me just was you say like three years ago the concept was planted in your brain and it's kind of it's only taken off recently. It's only taken off recently. There's a lot that went into this before launch, which I suppose is a good. You can tell it's a well-thought-through brand because when you appeared it wasn't like you get some companies that appear and you go who's that? Not sure. I've seen a fair few in my three years of doing this. I've seen a fair few in my in my three years of of doing this. I've seen a fair few like brewers starter and it just doesn't look the part, whereas as soon as you guys appeared it was like I think this is going to be really good. So it's a long process yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2:Um, I think, look, if you're drop shipping something, you, if you are taking something from another country or whatever, it is easier. The creation of a liquid has so many variations of. Initially I thought I was going to make it with smaller kind of cider makers and that just wasn't feasible. So then I found my partner in Aston Manor and there's a negotiation or an understanding of whether that works right. You don't want to make those mistakes. You then have the R&D part of it of briefing them of what you want. Then going through went through three or four different rounds of cider innovation in terms of a bit drier, a bit more fizzy. Can we have a slightly more tropical note? Can we have a bit less of the woody note? Can we have a slightly more tropical note? Can we have a bit less of the woody note? So all of that. Then you go. You're almost trying to prove a concept. Then there's this whole thing of trying to get people to give you some money, because I'm not from a family money, so an investor who just invested last week. I started talking to him in August last year and that's not through any apathy, that's just it takes a long time. So you then have this kind of element of okay, well, I've got to put the concept together. You almost have to prove the concepts before it's been proven for someone to lend you some money or invest in your business. Then, when you get to that point, if you're going to market, you have all of the kind of infrastructure of like, for example, bottling lines don't run every day. There's lots of people wanting to do it, so you have to then book your slot. You have to make sure that the liquid is made by that point. You then have to buy, like caps and cardboard. So all of that logistics stuff is a full-time job to a certain extent. And then you're right, I'm very fortunate that one of my investors owns a fancy cool agency in London and they helped with a lot of the brand positioning. But a lot of the thinking was let's create something that could go on TV next week, although it's not going to go on TV for two years, if it ever did.
Speaker 2:But having that brand architecture, as we call it, and having that forethought of what you want to do is super important, because as a consultant, I'll speak to lots of brands that go yeah, we're going through a rebrand Mate and I'll speak to lots of brands. They go yeah, we're going through a rebrand, mate, calm down, you're not Pepsi. Sometimes you can kind of have this mentality. It's called ready fire aim. So effectively just say yes, we're going to do it, and it's better being 80% there than 100% not but also having the kind of forethought of what, like what we want to represent, who we want to talk to.
Speaker 2:So, from the first, we're in a month, eight now, and we're only really getting into marketing now in terms of me, with content creators, and looking at what we're going to do in terms of our look and feel and how do we engage consumers and what's the story and what is refreshingly present, because actually the first six months is refreshingly present, because actually the first six months is like find a sales team, work out your pricing, get some people to try the liquid, be happy that the liquid I mean we called it batch one and we'll always have a different batch because I think that that's important but this might not have been the liquid we stayed on.
Speaker 2:You know, you have these assumptions and I guess there's an equal balance of wanting to just not get in the way of yourself to get something out there, but also taking the time to maybe think a bit further down the line. And again, that comes from experience of observing other businesses that had founders, that maybe had investors who had useful talents. So not like someone who's just got a bit of spare change like cash, having an investor who comes in, who owns a below the line agency and above the line agency, or maybe someone who's prevalent in, uh, the grocery or the on-premise space. You know, these are things that I guess if I ever write a book there, like they're the things in that playbook of going. You know, start to think about what's going to happen down the road, but don't ever knock it down the road by getting in your way I can relate so much of what you just said to playing in like local bands, like with the rebrand oh, we're not getting gigs.
Speaker 1:Maybe we need to change our name. So, no, no, no, that's not. Maybe we just need to get the shit good before we worry about that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2:People. I think they're codependent right Because bands are brands and brands, I think, behave like bands. As a couple of ex-musicians or current musicians, I always think about the longevity of great bands and you look at, from take that, that playing every hole in the wall to having this incredibly long career, versus a pop idol or the Foo Fighters, maybe a bad example or even a Coldplay or an Ed Sheeran who played everywhere, and then they have this longevity With a brand. You have to kind of pay your dues and make sure that you are working to build your community and looking after that community and not like jumping it so it doesn't happen a lot. But say, if a brand was suddenly catapulted into Tesco's tomorrow and they're in 2,700 stores, they haven't done the hard work to kind of build that community, to learn, to get the 10,000 hours, to learn what it's like when you break a string on stage and not do that in front of 9 million people on a Saturday night on a shiny floor.
Speaker 2:So I think the relationship between brands and bands and brands, if you know what I mean, is really key, because the best beer brands or cider brands or trainers, they're part of a culture and I kind of wanted to create something with Chance, where it wasn't just something that people thought tasted really good. They'd actually think about wearing a t-shirt of it. And I spoke to someone a while back and I said, if you'd have gone to someone five years ago like people are going to steal Guinness Zero Zero glasses and wear Guinness Zero Zero t-shirts or Lucky Saint socks, you'd be like, yeah, man, probably wear a non-out brand. But because of all this hard work by great brand teams and by Quality Liquids and by community, we are finding that these things are just as cool as when someone's wearing a Red Bull cap or a I don't know insert cool consumer product.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I get you, though, like, I think guinness has been such an important brand for the non-alc scene and I think it's just because people resonate with that brand and people go oh well, if they're really pushing this, then it must be okay to drink because, yeah, the liquid in itself it's fine, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine. It's not amazing, it's not terrible, it's just fine. Right, I mean, that's my personal opinion, but it's not something that I tried and went oh my God, this is the best stout I've ever drank. I've had far superior stouts. It's just you look at Guinness and you trust them because it's Guinness. They're famous for their adverts, they're famous for what they do, and if they're putting so much time and effort into promoting their alcohol-free, then it must be valid.
Speaker 1:I think that's had a real impact on people that do drink non-alcoholic drinks. The first thing that a lot of people say to me is oh, yeah, alcohol-free. I've had a bit. Tell you what? What's good Guinness? It's always that conversation have you tried the Guinness? It's like yes, yes, steve, I've tried the Guinness Many times.
Speaker 2:But if I get into a consumer behaviour angle of what we've been looking at for a long time, in and out, it's all about something and it's about permission, and it's giving yourself permission to want to be, a permission and kind of confidence that this is going to taste great and I will want to buy another one. But also it's the permission to look in front of your friends and we are, you know, habitual like um, animals, right, yeah, and we used to have a term in australia called bar defendability and basically it was like can someone come back from the bar with a round or something? And if their mate goes, we can swear on here, right, what the what the f is that they can instantly come back and go. Well, I'm going to tell you and that's part of hipsterism and I think that's why craft beer is really exciting, because people suddenly felt I'm cooler than you, because I know what a nipper is and I know what IBUs are and all this kind of stuff. So to have that permission into non-alcohol has taken a few different things and I totally agree, guinness has suddenly been.
Speaker 2:Oh well, if Guinness, because Guinness drinkers kind of sit on a higher echelon as well, because it doesn't taste very nice Guinness for the first 50 pints. But then when you get into it you know that's what me and my best mate, dave did. We in our youth followed the Guinness girls around not in a weird way in Manchester getting our free pints, because we knew when we sat at the table and we were drinking Guinness and our mates were drinking Fosters, we were cooler than them. So the kind of prestige of that. And then there's lots of very smart and the awareness on all the advertising and the merchandise and such.
Speaker 2:So I think you're totally right. It's like going oh well, if they're doing it, then it's kind of all right, right. And then you've got like he's saying, and then you've got Seedlip and then you've got all of the kind of growth of these really great brands that have come into it. Diageo has pushed a lot of it in terms of Tanqueray and even Captain coming in and such. Unless those big brands join the party, we all kind of it's that jock at school. If he's doing it, then maybe it'll be alright for us to do.
Speaker 1:On that note of these big brands having a real impact on the market, I think there's also brands that are really not doing enough. Like I don't know if you've tried birramoretti alcohol free. Like the fuck is that? It's awful. Like if you go to a supermarket, five out of six beers that you might pick up are just not good. And I think that has such a such a negative impact on the industry because a lot of people are trying these drinks and going, oh, that's horrible, whereas guinness they've got away with. I say got away with, it is a good liquid, but it's it's not like it doesn't blow your brains out, it's just fine. And when you talk to people it's like, wow, that's amazing. It's like there's so many people could be experiencing such more wonderful things if they just knew about it I think there's two things.
Speaker 2:There's one I used to cop a load of shit from my mates in australia who had these amazing, amazing and artisan cider brands and they were were like we were nearly 30% of the market. We're huge in Australia, and my kind of position was like you're not really here unless I'm here in a bit of a wind up your mate way, but you're bringing people into that category and there's a reason why you have Jack Daniels and you have Johnny Walker but then you have Malt. People need to be kind of handheld in. So I think the bigger brands that are doing that you have to trust that someone might find their way in because of a Biamaretti but might end up finding a Cloudwater or a we Could Be Friends or an Apollo, whatever it is.
Speaker 2:I think the other thing that's important is that you know we are seeing this kind of two stages to non-arc, where you have what we would call first generation or beta or range extension, where someone goes. To non-arc, where you have what we would call first generation or beta or range extension, where someone goes. This is the version of that. So guinness zero, peroni zero, heineken zero, corona zero. Insert the 50 different italian beers there are now, for some reason, all from it. But then the next, yeah, but then the next thing that comes along is people go well, I'm going to produce a liquid because I want to produce a great liquid, not because it's a range extension, and that's where lucky saint comes in. And then that's where we position ourselves, are going.
Speaker 2:We didn't make a version of there's not like chance five percent and we went, oh, it's a bit of money, and then they're not out drinkers. It was no, we're gonna make something for that. And that's what you'll then see is the next kind of growth. And you've seen that in craft beer, where the big boys kind of came in but then that spurred on, it almost just kind of broke the door open for everyone to come in. And I think we will only see more and more people as consumers have more trust and permission. As customers give more space and bars give more taps, you'll get more people maybe sat in their front room going. I reckon I could actually have a crack at a non-art brand.
Speaker 1:You're treading a dangerous line here because my head is ticking and I only have limited resources birmingham tap water and some hops go. I've drunk worse, most likely birramoretti zero for one. Um, but you, you are right, like there are so many more brands releasing things and there's so much more out there where you you can go pretty much anywhere and get a good liquid to drink. Um, how have you found the kind of? What's the reaction been to what you've put out? Has it been mostly positive? Have you had any kickback in terms of it being non-alcohol? Do you think we're mostly past that now? I think you know we're quite strategic in terms of initially being non-alcohol.
Speaker 2:Do you think we're mostly past that now? I think you know we're quite strategic in terms of initially you are playing in the right spaces. So, again, from my experience, early adoption of places that serve food, slightly more refined menus of cocktail bars or like more city center bars, hotels. You know these are the consumers and the customers that kind of got it early, the spit and sawdust like I can see through pubs from my house. So like the Cornichon have chance, the Georgian Dragon doesn't really and the Red Lion won't for a long time Because, again, the consumers and those occasions are slightly different. And then you kind of buck the trend, like we do really well at football grounds and those kinds of things. But we've definitely been quite thoughtful where we tried to play early on. There are some spaces where that bucks the trend. So places like the warehouse project in manchester they don't stock us but they stock non-op brands and you start to think, oh, what people are at a rave and they're not drunk. Or or like gig venues, again, you go. Well, people go to festivals and they go to, you know, apollo's and such to get smashed in and watch a band. But actually they're starting to change. So our strategy of being in the pubs that already had a good non-out beer adoption was kind of our space.
Speaker 2:In terms of the supermarkets, we are absolutely seeing that, especially because of beer and spirits they've started to give. You can go looking, you're saying to be tesco's, morrison's, as their waitrose once again, like the bays are bigger, right, they're getting bigger and bigger. That was the same with craft beer and that's then influencing the next step down for us. Like my shop through there is a co-op and you go, ah, like co-ops got like six non-alc, six cider brands. Like you've got no non-alc. So it's about trying to make sure that you're going to these places at the right time, not just because they get it, but you also don't want to go to a place where the consumers don't get it and basically, quite quickly you get delisted.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think from an e-commerce point of view, from our website and from amazon, there's a really high adoption again, because in the places where people might struggle to understand what you're doing or need a little bit of help to understand it, digital lets you paint pictures and tell stories. So that's a really exciting place. I think the big thing for us this year and the big insight will be when we start to overlap of summer beer gardens, festivals, music, music. There's got to be tens of thousands of people that are going. All right, I want to have six drinks this I'm saying six, six drinks at this gig if I can have four of them and not out and not really know the distance difference, because 90 percent of non-applications have alcohol. Like people are switching, there's lots of cool terms for it zebring and bookending and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have only heard of zebra striping in the last maybe month, and it's like what, how? How have I missed this, like I'm supposed? This is supposed to be my thing, right like talk.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's a big thing, man, but yeah, I fucking I'll email you the deck on it. It's very interesting, but it's that kind of thing of I think you one of the big pushbacks that you'll get in non-alcohol is like, well, I'm not pregnant, I'm not for whatever reason, choosing not to religion, disposition, addiction, I'm not pregnant, I'm not driving, like what's the point. But actually the point you're missing is that if you take out alcohol and non-alcohol, you can just go. It's an occasion. So if I can stay in a pub or a restaurant or go to my mate's house for longer, that's the goal. Now, what can facilitate that if I can't have the normal things that I drink in that period? There's a great brand that I'm friends with called 6%, and they're a 6% wine. Now, that's not low out, right, but the way I've spoken about it is like, well, you're two glasses of wine at lunch, not one. Yeah, because of that.
Speaker 2:And and starting to think about how what we're trying to do is live in traditionally alcohol occasions but give people reasons to stay longer because we've all been there where we like you're driving, you've had three pints of coke and you go.
Speaker 2:I'm going on because I just feel like I am a bottle of coke. If you could then have those drinks with your friends and kind of understand, you know, be involved with the moment, because you're drinking something that tastes great. Like that's really interesting. The big stat last year was like 800 million pounds is lost in pubs to tap water sales, and by sales I mean. So they've done the math to look at that. And it's again like like mike, I've got a five and a nine year old and they drink cordial, they drink Vimta and stuff, but like don't go to a fucking pub, have a, have a 15 pound burger and chips or a sirloin steak for 90 pounds and then get a cordial. Like have we not moved on a little bit? Yeah, so it's all these kinds of moments and occasions that we can kind of elongate, and I think more and more places are getting it and that's where we're kind of trying to follow suit.
Speaker 1:And I think it can change the hospitality industry as well. More alcohol-free options, like the pub doesn't have to be just a place where you go in the evening, you know, the pub can be a place where you go to work in the afternoon and you can have a beer, you can have a cider, you can have whatever you, whatever you would consider. An evening drink can be a lunchtime drink, you know, because everyone loves a lunchtime pint, but it's, it's delicious. It doesn't just have to be exclusive to evenings and I think that's where venues can look into.
Speaker 1:Okay, where are these people that we can attract in during the day that maybe wouldn't want to drink elk, but there's them.
Speaker 2:Enjoy a nice drink totally mate and and there's, you can imagine the amount of insight and podcasts and decks and all this shit that I get given in terms of like all of these understandings of consumer behavior. But it took the little known marketing genius, window kid. He's a very cool rapper and he has gone sober recently because of a medical reason and he just said the most profound thing which I think summed it all up, and he was like if I go to the pub with you and I'm having a beer and you're having a non-out beer, it's the same beer. No one is going to get battered off that first pint and suddenly feel ostracized from the conversation, and even if you have two beers. So if you think about all those moments where you might want to go and have two beers, you don't actually need the alcohol.
Speaker 2:And working at record league for a long time, which is, you know, an eight million case brand like big old no one's I challenge. I'm not promoting this, but I would be very interested if everyone anyone has ever been drunk on record like it just isn't a drink that you drink enough to get drunk on. Yeah, that's a good point, but why are you drinking it then? Because it tastes nice and I feel I'm holding a pint and it's sunny and it's refreshing. And then you go, oh, so I don't, and it's kind of an evil thought. You go, oh well, so I don't, just drink to get drunk. And I think craft beer has done that right. When I was at Brewdog people were like, oh my God, they've got like a 13% beer, like, oh, they're trying to promote people getting battered. No, like you don't drink a pint of 47% whiskey, you sip it and trying to change that.
Speaker 2:The reason why the alcohol is high is because it creates a taste profile or a reaction in your metabolism or mouth or whatever it is, to kind of give you a sensation. You don't just drink 10 pints of something so you've got the courage to get a kebab and try and snog someone. Like, if you really take it down to what it is it's about, and it's about a glass of something really tasty. So if you then can create that and it takes away all of the other things that you know, I could drive home, I can go to the office in the morning, I'm not going to have disrupted sleep and we're not at all like a sober brand. We're very, very open to any consumer who wants to drink us at any time, Like that's when it gets exciting and you go okay. Well, what we're trying to do here is just give someone something amazing to drink.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think there is no argument against that. The amount of people that ask me you know what's the point, and the response is it tastes good, but you can't come back against it unless you really dislike the taste of it. Well, let's all eat space food.
Speaker 2:Just have a pill every day with all the carbs you need, like, sorry, just drink. You like all these people having fuel at lunch, like whatever, that's your journey, right, I like to eat something nice at lunch. So if you use the same thing of food, food is not fuel. Food is a really wonderful, communicative, tasty thing that turns out to be fuel. Alcoholic drinks, non-alcoholic drinks, drinks in general, and not just there to facilitate your I'm getting quite fancy in, you know, inhibitions dropping or being drunk.
Speaker 2:Can't think of the I word for being drunk intoxication that's the guy yes, says the alcoholic what about if it's just a really tasty thing?
Speaker 1:yeah for sure. Well, I mean, that's for me as a, as an alcoholic, like it's gotta be. I am probably more snobby now about my beer and my cider and my wine and everything else than I ever was before, because beforehand I loved a couple of nice drinks and then I loved anything Like what will get me drunk in the most resourceful way possible. How can I get to the place I want to get to, whereas now I'm drinking purely for flavor? So I've learned so much more about my palate and about what I like and about what beers I think are good and what drinks I think are tasty. Because I'm drinking it for the for the one purpose, because I'm drinking it for the one purpose other than to not relapse, it's because I enjoy it and I like it.
Speaker 1:It has become a bit of an obsession of mine, and when people kind of try to argue that point, it's like, okay, let's flip it. Then why are you drinking, let's say, cider? Why are you drinking cider if the only point of it is alcohol? Why are you drinking it if the only point of it is alcohol? Why are you drinking it if that's your honest thought? Because you may as well just drink vodka.
Speaker 2:The biggest selling spirit mixer in Australia is a vodka, lime and soda. Okay, vodka, technically, is odourless, senseless and tasteless, right, so it doesn't taste very good. So basically, what you're doing is you're drinking something to get drunk, and if that's what you want to do, that's fine. But so basically what you're doing is you're drinking something to get drunk, and if that's what you want to do, that's fine, but it kind of gives you that thing if people go.
Speaker 2:I've got friends who I don't really like craft beer, I don't like taste a bit. It's like well, why are you drinking, insert cooking lager, and they're like well, because I, like you said, want to get to that point and I think, well, that's interesting. What was really interesting is talking about then is, I guess, the inspiration you've had of really wanting to learn more and understand what you like the taste of. But like we're sat here now because of your ability then to translate that and engage people telling people about that. So if you're sat in a pub and there's four of you drinking a pint of coke, you might have a bit of chat and you might talk about the football, but you're not going to go.
Speaker 2:You know what? The? To the toffee notes in this Pepsi Max are slightly different, but if you can sit around and you have these incredibly exciting non-out beers as well, you also have that other level of that geekiness and banter. And ah, did you know that guy who made Chance? He's got stupid floppy hair and you know it's the culture though, isn't it?
Speaker 1:It's the culture of it, and I think again, I will confess I've not been a part of the cider world ever, like I've not drunk much of it. But you know, I know that cider, I know that cider exists, but I've not seen anybody take up that, that heritage, because there is a massive heritage in it and it's wrong with it in terms of alcohol-free. You know, you touched on it earlier. If you think alcohol-free cider, traditionally you'd go kiwi and lime and it's like it's just a soft drink, whereas when I drank yours, it was like shit. This is like I feel like my granddad would have loved this. That's the first thing that came to my brain was because he was a big cider drinker and he was a bloody farmer.
Speaker 1:So you know, and I think that's really important, with a lot of these drinks, like with beers, it's like this has been brewed. There's a whole process here. Each batch is a little bit different and it's just a wonderful thing. A soft drink, or an orange juice, it's just like yeah, I that from the that refill fountain over there. It's got a really girthy glass. It's boring, isn't it?
Speaker 2:you know the kids when they were like mixing all of the soda fountains and nandos, remember that yeah, man see that I can get on board with.
Speaker 2:That is still perfectly a bit mixology yeah, but it's my past job when I was at cross it. You know people are going what's the point of like a non-out spirit and when? The whole conversation across it was like now, this is a flavor building block. So if you want to make something which evokes that reaction or that flavor profile, you need to have these tools. So don't just think of it as like it doesn't taste like whiskey. It's like, well, what does whiskey taste like? Like what does wine taste like? What does cider taste like? What does beer taste like?
Speaker 2:When you start to break it down a bit like you know the gastron, gastronomy of food, like there's a reason why you put two or three things on your fork when you eat it, because you're blending them together. And, yeah, for us to have another new evolving category to play with all those things. It's amazing because, look, alcohol is, to a certain extent, on its way out. I'm not saying it's dying tomorrow, but we've got an increasingly younger consumer who are disenfranchised with it, are not bothered about it. We're having more and more brilliant options instead of it and all the other stuff. You know it's not going to die, it's just going to iterate and the fact that it's got less abv than before.
Speaker 1:Like you know, it's just one thing yeah, yeah for sure, and I think it's a very positive thing. You know I'm I'm not anti-alcohol um, I'm actually very pro-alcohol, in fact I miss it dearly, but I don't want to see people not drink ever, because I think it's a beautiful thing really, and perhaps some of my finest moments in life have been when I've got that lovely three-pint buzz on. It's a wonderful place to be. I just took it too far, far, but that's just me, right.
Speaker 2:But I still want to be around these places and I still want to be around these people being a little bit silly, um, and then, because it's great, I just want something in my hand that isn't a fucking orange juice we, we worked with them, a company called clarity and they do sober events and I found it fascinating to go into that space and and, for all intents and purposes, if you'd have rocked in at nine o'clock you wouldn't have known that it was sober or not, because people were dancing having a good time. But there was this observation from this lady working there and she just went. But you just haven't got that vibe that maybe it could just turn at any point. So you go, okay, you still got that cool thing. And then to like, I'm a football fan, I went to watch the football in the pub on Sunday because my wife kicked me out of the house and my kids all want to watch Paw Patrol or something.
Speaker 2:And that moment of when the goal went in and you jump up and your mate's next to you and there's people across the pub and you know like those places have to stay open, like walking in and the barman you know I'm not getting all like cheers, but the barman knowing people and it being a hub of the community and people celebrating and it can still exist and it will exist with the onset of these great non-alcoholic brands. Otherwise, you know, we've got this whole huge hole in our communities and in a world where, like butchers and getting all sort of stuff going on, but like in a world where, like butchers and seamstresses and local shoe shops and all that kind of stuff are dying away because of Amazon and supermarkets, holding on to pubs is going to be really important yeah.
Speaker 1:I think it's one of the most important cultural things that we are facing is the death of the hospitality industry, and we can't allow that to happen and I don't think it will.
Speaker 1:The industry, and like we can't allow that to happen and I don't think it will. I think the the evolution of non-alcohol, in a way, is such an important factor in keeping these places alive and in changing people's drinking habits, but like shifting them to get them back into hospitality venues, because I think during covid, the age of the home drinker became a real like issue, but we're only really seeing the effects of now, the amount of people that are our home drinkers. And it's actually about getting people back into venues with with good options, because that's all it's about, isn't it? It's just about having options. You can. You can zebra stripe, which I would love to do, just to say I am doing, but obviously I'm not allowed to do that, so we won't. But you know it's whatever you want to drink, you can drink. You can go there as a sober person, as a sober, curious person or as somebody that is just having a nice drink, and that's fine.
Speaker 1:So I think it is a really important thing is the introduction of good alcohol-free options in these venues, apparently I am and it's.
Speaker 2:I haven't really even thought. I don't know. Maybe I've blocked out a lot of COVID, but if you'd have grabbed 10 people in the street and said, what are three things that you want back tomorrow Apart from seeing their friends and family and maybe going into an office, it would have been I just want to go to the pub, I just want to go and sit down with a load of other people and overhear something someone's saying, or like be excited to see someone come to the door, like these are special places and you know, if, if non-alc is one thing that can help um, help them innovate and change in a changing landscape, then it's. It's only got to be a good thing. And then all these people go oh, what's the point? You're like it's a pretty fucking be a good thing. And then all these people go oh, what's the point? You're like it's a pretty fucking big point, mate.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So where do you think the future of the AF industry lies? What do you think it looks like? Do you think getting stuff on tap is the most important step forward, or do you think there was more to it than that?
Speaker 2:I think definitely if I go to like a technical in an insight position like availability and visibility is so important. So people being able to see taps, to see things on menus and not be hidden in fridges um, we call it a decision tree and the decision tree is very easy to fall out of non-op to go oh, they haven't got any non-op beers, I'll just have a water, like they don't. People don't want to go, excuse me. You tell me what's good, governor. So I think any visibility from that point of view you're totally right with the insight of people wanting to hold pints is really important. I was adamant. I wanted to be in a 330ml bottle because I really think that that's an occasion of people drinking. You might be in a group of people with bottles as well. Ritual is really, and I think you know, having things that people feel comfortable to be holding and people like lucky saint with over a thousand taps. Nationally now, I think they gave away a hundred thousand pints in january. All these things are super important and I think what we're definitely going to see, as well as that adoption of in the on-premise of visibility driving it, we're going to see more and more space being given to supermarkets and even like you know the whole thing of like Lucky Saint being in a meal deal at Sainsbury's yes, wild, but like when you first like boker it, as my wife would say, you then go, yeah, but why wouldn't I want like it? I don't want a Fanta with my sandwich. Quite, like a beer and a sandwich. So I like a beer and a sandwich. So I think that's starting to break down those barriers in terms of the real estate of that big shop, of where it's available.
Speaker 2:We won't be long until you can get like a beer, a non-art beer, in the cafe, for example. And then you've got places like mcdonald's and all those kinds of in the football. I was chatting to a mate the other day like god, don't you just want to stand on the football and hold a pint like I? Why do you have to drink bovril? And I know the historic stuff and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:But if we can have this, I think we're gonna see the availability and the um, the prevalence of these brands, grow and grow. And I think the other massive thing is we're gonna see more and more of people, hopefully like me, who are just going. Right, I'm gonna make something because I want to make a nice non-op drink. I'm not going to make a non-op drink version of something and I think that in wine, that in spirits, that in cider, that in beer, that in lager, even down to, like, you know, the rtd space, you know that liars do and I think colinio have done bits. You know people just coming out and going. I'm not just going to respond to a insights department, I'm going to make something because it tastes great. It just happens not to have alcohol in. That's the future nice.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you very much for your insight. It's been really interesting. Actually, this is it's been a very different conversation to a lot of them. You've come at it from a very different place, um, which is just like this, given me a lot to think about, and it's stuff I've never really gone into because I've not had any experience in this field. You know, I just look at the stuff and drink the stuff and talk to the people that that you know make the stuff but don't really have anything to do with the wider industry. So thank you very much for stopping and talking to me and I can't wait to drink batch number two talking to me, and I can't wait to drink batch number two. It's on route.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the sober boozers club podcast. My name is ben gibbs. You can find me on all the socials at sober boozers club. If you do one thing after this episode, I beg you to go and source some chance clean cider, because it will change your life. It's available on amazon, which is almost too handy in my opinion. So you go and do that and thank me later, I guess.