Sober Boozers Club
The Sober Boozers Club Podcast is brought to you by Ben Gibbs - Alcoholic. Since 2022 Ben has been sourcing and enjoying the best alcohol free beer the world has to offer and has been documenting these beverages during his sobriety journey. Ben has worked alongside craft breweries, bottle shops and sober activists to raise awareness of Grey Area Drinking and to help spread the word on the growing market that is AF/NA beverages, becoming the face of the Alcohol Free Beer Club and featuring on many podcasts, as well as securing a number of features on BBC Radio. In 2024 Ben became the first alcoholic in active recovery to win a British Guild Of Beer Writers award for commentary on beer. This podcast features experts from the Beer world, as well as Alcohol Free breweries and sober activists as we explore the world of Alcohol Free beer and sobriety.
Sober Boozers Club
Stirchley Wines brings legitimacy to the alcohol-free revolution
What began as a small family-run off-license in 1979 has become an award-winning institution at the forefront of Birmingham's craft beer revolution. Join host Ben Gibbs as he sits down with Krishan and Tim from Stirchley Wines and Spirits to uncover the fascinating story behind one of the UK's most respected bottle shops.
Their journey weaves through decades of beer evolution—from introducing exotic international brews to Birmingham in the early 90s, championing the British craft beer movement with early adoption of BrewDog and Thornbridge, to now leading the charge in the alcohol-free beer revolution with nearly 50 different options on their shelves.
The conversation takes a deeper dive into how alcohol-free beer has transformed from the days when Kaliber was the only (terrible) option available to today's diverse landscape of quality non-alcoholic alternatives. Krishan and Tim share insights on how COVID lockdowns accelerated interest in alcohol-free options, and how Guinness Zero's entry into the market helped legitimize alcohol-free drinking for mainstream consumers.
As winners of SIBA's Best Independent Craft Beer Retailer award, they reflect on what it means to gain recognition from the brewing industry they've supported for decades, and offer their thoughts on where the future of alcohol-free beer is heading. Will we see more specialised styles beyond pale ales and lagers? Is this just a passing trend or a fundamental shift in drinking culture?
Whether you're sober-curious, a craft beer enthusiast, or interested in the business of specialty retail, this episode offers rich insights into how independent bottle shops create community spaces where everyone—regardless of their relationship with alcohol—can feel welcomed and included.
To find out more about the wonderful world of alcohol free beer and to check in with me head to www.instagram.com/sober_boozers_club
This episode is not brought to you by any sponsors because nobody wants to sponsor me.
This is the Sober Boozers Club Podcast. This podcast, we're going to talk to people from within these circles and find out a little bit about their journey, so you sit back, relax and enjoy. Today I'm talking to Krishan and Tim from one of my favorite establishments in the world. It's Sturgeley Wines and Spirits, right here in Birmingham. They are one of the best bottle shops in the country, and that's not just me being biased. They've been nominated for countless awards. We're going to get into that. We're going to discuss the story and the history of starchy wines and spirits and shock horror we're going to talk about beer. Gentlemen, thank you very much for taking time out of your sunday to join me. This is my first ever two guest podcast, so that's exciting news we're glad to accommodate well.
Ben:I mean, you've accommodated me in so many ways historically. Your establishment is, in my opinion, the finest bottle shop in the Midlands, if not the United Kingdom. I knew of Sturchley Wines and Spirits when I was a drinker of real boy booze and I popped in if I was having special guests around and I wanted to be like, look, I don't just drink cheap lager, I drink nice things as well. But we kind of became friends when I stopped drinking alcohol because your range was the best alcohol-free range that I had ever seen in the wild. But the story of Sturchley Wines and Spirits is a long one, so I was wondering if you could go into that a little bit. How did this all start for you and for your family?
Krishan:So we established the business in 1979. It was my father and I think my aunt at the time or rather my aunt at the time and my dad jumped in kind of very quickly and just went you know, I'll catch you, they already ran an off-license over in Albury and I think my dad just kind of went you know I can do this as well and kind of just worked there as a partner and then eventually bought out the place and that was very quickly after it opened. So he'd been basically running it since 1979, ran two jobs right into the 90s I'm sorry, right into the 80s. So he was working hard at what he did and always meticulous about what he did. So it was always something that was always trying to be the best, not in terms of like we're better than everybody else, but just put all the effort in keep the place clean, make it presentable. He always had a studious mind about that, trying to make sure that everything was exactly how it should be. That's always carried on.
Krishan:I joined probably in the late 80s, early 90s, probably when I turned 18. I'd been working there since I was eight, by the way. So since it opened I'd been there just working, helping stacking shelves. It was serving customers booze and fags at eight, nine, ten, uh, because you could get away with that stuff back then, you know you could just do it. You know it'd be like. You know, somebody came in and went 20 bensons, yep, no problems, we'll sort you out. So it was always there. You know it's serve. You know we used to do, uh, what you call it, uh, draft sherry, draft cider, and people come in with their bottles and they go a pint of the dry sherry please, or the cream sherry, and I'd be like, right, I'm doing that, right, you know, 10 years old, I'm pouring, I'm pouring alcohol containers, just going for it. So you know, I've been there a long time, so went off to college, did that thing not very, I'm not very, I'm not very good at concentrating, so I'm not very good at learning stuff um, so I went to college, got very okay at that and then when I left I was like you know, what am I gonna do? I'm gonna get a proper job or am I gonna go and help in the family business? And I thought, you know, this is the easiest route. It wasn't. And uh, so I, I joined up at 18, one of the things we'd already do.
Krishan:It been doing at that point was, you know, we were a bit of everything. You know, lots, lots of booze, a little bit of grocery, and the first thing I did it was only a tiny amount. It's like you know, washing up liquid into bog rolls and the old box of cereal and a tin of beans or something like that. And the first thing I did when I got in I was like, oh, that's got to go. So I was like, right, I'll cut all that out, right, let's be an off license if we're going to be an off license. At this point we were still in our old shop. So where were we then? Uh, so yeah, we're on the left hand side of the business. It was the old, the old, the old mark one, and all we wanted to do is make sure that we had as much as we could get in there without making it look untidy.
Krishan:One of the things that happened very early on when I got in was I was introduced to international beer, and so was my father, and there was a guy that ran a warehouse in Birmingham who just dealt in international beer. It was only a small range, but it was Germanic, it was Belgianic. It was Czechoslovakian, czechoslovakian. Czechoslovakian was Budweiser Budvar at that point. And he came in one day and he went I've got this beer. You interested in taking it? It was Budweiser Budvar. And we were like, yeah, it's different, we'll take that. And you know, for weeks we got it in and for weeks we were just telling people about this new beer. For weeks we were just telling people about this new beer. Okay, budweiser, budweiser it's, it's like budweiser but not budweiser. It explained the whole story about how the americans have ripped off the checkers of accians and just taken this name and made it their thing and but, and the checkers of accians are fighting back and this is the proper stuff. So this is. This is kind of what we did.
Krishan:Two weeks later it comes back, how's it going? And we went more. We. Later he comes back and he's like how's it going? And we went more, we want more of this. And he was like, yeah, welcome to my world, I'm going to give you more. And he just kept building little bits and pieces and just bring in another Chequers back in. It was Bohemia Regent or something like that. And then he'd come back and he'll go. I've got some German beer, I've got some Belgian and we were going, yeah, just keep bringing this stuff in. This is brilliant, this is different. This is all the nice things people were noticing at this point, just going, oh, it's got something different.
Krishan:This is a point where, also, when you went to the off-license you only went to the off-license for booze. It was either you were a wine merchant or you were just selling a bit of everything and you, you know, you did your little specialities. International beer at this point wasn't really a thing. You got the domestic grog. Occasionally you get things like tuburg or something like that and you'd get all excited about that, but that was it. So we, from about 89 into the 90s, we were just bringing in beer. By the time we got to maybe the first half of the 90s, we were just bringing in beer. By the time we got to the maybe the first half of the 90s, I think, we maybe had a complement of maybe two, three hundred beers. Uh, going into that time, mainly belgium, a little bit of german, a lot of international stuff, things that were all sexy and exciting. You know things, things like Corona and Sol and Singer Beer. We were getting those things in when they weren't doing the rounds. That's where we start. Keep doing that.
Krishan:Fast forward into the 2000s. We refit the store. We've bought the shop next door, we basically burst through the wall, refitted in 2000. And that's kind of what you see now since 2000. So about 25 years we have made the shop just look like the way it is and just kept it that way. Just gone right, nice and tidy, keep it going. That gave us the opportunity to just expand. More wine at that point, more space just to do things. The beer space kind of filled itself up, but we weren't going crazy. It was a lot more international then at about 2000 it wasn't really until about 2010 the british scene starts to kicks, it kicks in. So we, we, we start playing in that space.
Ben:You know we're bringing things like uh, you call it brewdog, brewdog yeah oh, wow yeah, we had a very good chat about brewdog not too long ago yeah, 2009.
Krishan:I think I had punk ipa on my shelf in 2009. Brewdog had only been going a year. At that point I think we were the first people in birmingham to bring brewdog in. Weirdly, things that we brought to Birmingham first Desperados what Desperad we had to get that on import from a company in Leeds. They were the official importers and we were like going right, send us Desperados. We were getting this stuff and it was going nuts. This was before it became a UK thing and became the ubiquitous crap it is now, but it was exciting then and it was also french.
Krishan:Most people think it's mexican, it's weird, things like that and we were getting, you know, a sepporo in when it was properly japanese. We were getting those kind of really weird tidbits of things. It was going, wow, this is really different. And then and now these are ubiquitous to the point where they're actually not even brewed in countries they're supposed to be in, no longer brewed in. In mexico it's now uk beer. Uh, um porro, weirdly brewed in ireland by guinness and there's so much of that singers brewed in this country now, uh, weirdly, uh, the one that's really kicked me now is a brooklyn lager that's brewed in europe, which really I'm a proper fanboy and I am so upset by that and it's, it's a shame anyway, that's me. So you know things like yeah, so things like brew dog, things like thornbridge, things like beaver town, I think we we're pretty much. We were the first people in birmingham to to grab beef tongue Because I went to the brewery to go and buy that stuff when it was still in the Duke and Q Logan Plant took me on a tour.
Krishan:It was me and Lee from Favourite Beers in Cheltenham. Yes, we went down there and he said come and have a look at our brewery. It was in the basement, it was like the size of a small locker room, it was like here it is. And you know he talked us through what he was doing at the time and it was just insane, you know. And look at where they are now.
Ben:Yeah.
Krishan:Yeah, for sure, you know. So I think we were quite fortunate at that point, where we were, just we were in the right place at the right time. So we not in the right place at the right time, because we were really well positioned to just go. This is exactly the kind of thing we we want to play with, and you know so. So in that early sort of 2010s, 11s, 12s, we were, you know, we're in our element just finding all these new great breweries and then bringing those to people. So you know, we've, we've done it, we've been there. Um, in terms of alcohol free, that's just been a slow evolution over that time. You know, once upon a time there was none, there was no alcohol free. It was caliber and that was it, and caliber, if you, if you've ever tried it, is the worst thing ever.
Ben:I've never had the I'm gonna say the pleasure, because I feel like, as a part of just the law of alcohol-free beer, it's a drink that should be drunk Like. I've tried to find it online and you just can't get it.
Krishan:No, I don't think it's not made in Europe.
Ben:It was, wasn't it? I'm sure it was brewed by Guinness, I think so I'm not sure, I can't remember now.
Krishan:But yeah, I know it was it was always seen as the thing you had because you had no option and that was always a thing, um and and there's everything before caliber and and there really wasn't anything about that. I remember where anybody went oh, we're doing an alcohol-free beer, because nobody saw that. You know, if you wanted an alcohol-free beer, you were crazy, and you know that's what Coke was for. Yeah, and orange juice, of course. And orange juice, you know, and it always annoyed me because, you know, when I was in my teens, late teens and early 20s, right up to my early 30s, I didn't drink. And so when I went out, I was always the designated driver because I was the guy that never drunk anything. When I went out, I was always the designated driver because I was the guy that never drunk anything, and people you know.
Krishan:So I'd go to the pub and I'd go what am I going to drink? Because you know it was either cocoa or orange juice or water, and I really didn't like it. So I just kind of stayed out of the space. I wasn't what they call going out socially. You know I didn't go to the pub because there's no need for me to go to the pub, not socially. You know I didn't go to the pub because there's no need for me to go to the pub Other than company. You just go. I can't be asked to do that because I don't really want to drink anything and I'm not really in that space, so I'm going to leave it out.
Krishan:So for me it was something that was very frustrating. So I was always on the lookout for something interesting. It didn't really happen. There wasn't those real options, even from the German market. We'd see the odd thing, but it wasn't really until the mid-2015s, somewhere around about there, where we started seeing little bits and pieces. It wasn't the UK breweries, but then occasionally you'd get a UK brewery coming in and just going yeah, I can do that, we'll put something out, although I'm not really sure what we were first bringing in or what we were noticing what I do remember was my question was do you remember the first one, that that you you kind of looked up for, oh, people are buying this.
Ben:Actually, I think it might have been slightly more domestic stuff.
Krishan:So things like think, possibly something like I think it might have been stuff like the freedom and stuff like that, but there would have been other things I remember used to be able to. People would come in and go have you got anything on call free? And I'd go here's some over here and here's some over here and here's some, and I'd point around the shop. There'd be six different things or five different things, and it would be always like around the shop it wouldn't be all in one place because there wasn't any point. But what we were finding was, as time went on, we'd find more things and we'd keep bringing them in and they were still scattered around. And suddenly I was like you know, we could put all this on one shelf, you stick it all together, and suddenly we got a range. Um, I don't really know what the first thing was. I can't think. I'm just sorry. I've got a picture.
Tim:I've got a picture of our current lineup on the, on the screen I'm staring at it at the moment I'm going on it being possibly bet because they were one of the earlier doctors of low alcohol process possibly in my mind other than caliber. Obviously, they're the ones that stick out in my mind yeah, but we didn't really ever stop.
Krishan:Um, bex blue I was never really a fan, but it may have been something like bex blue very early on because it was there. It wasn't there for long because I think we just went. We can find other things, because there was always other things. But I'm not really sure what would have been the early adopters. It would have been more domestic-y stuff, so it wouldn't be Becks, it would be certain types of German alcohol-free. I think Veltins might have been in there very early on very early on.
Ben:I mean this sums up, if anything, the life of a non-drinker in the early 2010s up to really up until the last five years. Finding options has been now on impossible until this kind of boom that we've had recently, where there seem to be so many options now and so many people releasing really good quality things. I mean you say you've got a picture of your shelf. Your shelf alone is vast.
Krishan:Now the current range is sitting at about 45 nearly 50 lines, which is, I mean, we could still keep going. The problem with having too much is it's too much. I would rather have a smaller range but be able to swap it out more often, although I think at this point it just feels right to do it. The opportunities have never been so vast. This is like going back to 2014, suddenly looking at Craft Beer and going, oh wow, there is that much stuff. And the thing is, it's not then, at that point, going. It's a case of trying to get everything. It's about having a good measure of it, which is kind of what we try and carry out through all the stuff we do. You can't have everything. Therefore, let's pick the things that we want. That's the philosophy we run with the kind of things we do. They're the brands we want to support, they're the beers we want to see. These are the things we want to present to our customers. So when we're looking at putting a range together, that's what we're effectively doing. We're going okay, how many different types of products can we put in? How much variety of style can we put in, so that at least there's something for everybody? It is insane at the moment.
Krishan:But I remember when it suddenly became a bit more of a thing with breweries. You know there'd be the occasional brew. You know some brewery would knock something out. You know it'd be Viper and True or something like that or a thing. I'm not sure Again.
Krishan:Possibly things like I really don't know who was out there just doing things. It was when you got your alcohol-free breweries going and they were like we're just a brewery and we're just going to do alcohol-free beer. So people like Nirvana and it would have been, is it Big Drop? Yeah, big Drop, big Drop. Weirdly, small beer, small beer with the big prices. And you saw people like that go, coming along and going. We can just output everything to be alcohol free. Um, and that's where we suddenly gone. Okay, this is a little bit more serious. We would take those brands on because we're like we want that, because it's filling up that space a little bit more and there's a bit of variety in there. And I I don't really know when it suddenly became trendy. I think it was during lockdown, where breweries were suddenly going. We must have one, um, I think people were spending all day at home. They didn't want to all get smashed well, speak for yourself.
Krishan:Yeah, indeed stay at home and just vegetating alcohol. I think people did want to drink. They didn't always want to drink, but they wanted something else. Yes, that was always the thing. We've talked about this. Every time you come in, it's very much about having an alternative. You want to drink, but you don't want to drink. You want to have something else when you go to the pub, when you go to the pub, when you go to the restaurant, when you're sitting.
Tim:I think a lot of this revolution was actually driven by the shift in focus by the younger generation, those people that would normally have moved up into alcohol, heavy beers or heavy drinks. They're no longer focusing on that. That's not their main focus, you know. Um so obviously the industry adapted around that. You saw your early adopters in 2015, 2016. You dropped beers um big drop. Sorry, not drop beers, drop bear as well yeah, drop bear yes, that led.
Tim:That led to alcohol free focused breweries, sort of leading that charge. Then you saw some of the more traditional, smaller artisan breweries go. Well, you know, we can have a bit of that as well. So they started to invest a little bit in equipment and process to to sort of go down that process. Um, I mean, one of the most surprising things is is the is the sort, is the mid-sized breweries, the stalwarts of the brewing scene, people like Thornbridge. They haven't really or hadn't really sort of even broached that until well after lockdown. You know, we certainly didn't see anything from them until they were very and to their credit, that's because they are a very process-focused brewery they didn't do it until they were sure they could do it very and and to their credit, that's because they are a very process focused brewery they did.
Ben:They didn't do it until they were sure they could do it yeah, I think when, when you talk lockdown as well, you'd be amiss to not mention mash gang, because of course mash gang born during lockdown and kind of really started to make their move when the world started opening up.
Ben:I know for me that's when I had to start drinking alcohol-free drinks, because my relationship with alcohol during COVID had gotten so bad that it became dangerous, and I think that there's been a shift in attitude since lockdown towards drinking. A lot of people that did become home drinkers during lockdown then had to address their drinking go. I can't drink like this every day, but I've really got a taste for a beer now at about four o'clock in the afternoon. I wonder if there's anything out there that I could get that kind of scratches, that itch, and you try a Heineken or a Becks Blue or whatever was in the supermarket at the time, just post-COVID, and it just doesn't cut it. So then you have MASH Gang emerging from lockdown and all of a sudden it seems like the game just seemed to change. And I don't know if that's a very one-sided view, because that's when I got into alcohol-free beer, but from a little bit of research it.
Krishan:Yeah, exactly yeah they come along, they, they've, they've turned up. They make big loud and they're kicking over the tables and they go hey, we're here now and we're going to bring you voice.
Tim:Well, I'm going to make a confession here, because up until about a week and a half ago, I had drunk a match going beer. And what one did you drink?
Krishan:Oh, that.
Tim:Which one was it?
Krishan:Christian Lesser Evil.
Tim:It was the care package.
Ben:So we talked about this, didn't we?
Krishan:Yeah, we got the care. Yes, um, I read up on this afterwards when we talked about it and we talked about the little bit of bitterness that was a little bit odd on that one and I was reading up reviews on it and everybody else seemed to like it really, really a lot. Um, we didn't dislike it, I think.
Tim:We just thought there was a bit of a that that odd, yeah, that kind of leans into into me more than you christian, because I'm a fairly analytical person when it comes to to beer and always have been right way back from. You know my early days as a drinker back in the 90s, probably one of the very early adopters. You know me sat at 11 o'clock at night early 90s probably one of the very early adopters. You know me sat at 11 o'clock at night, early 90s, waiting for Michael Jackson's Beer Hunter to come on on Channel 4. And it was never consistent. So you know that was prior to me being Not that Michael Jackson.
Ben:No, not that Michael Jackson, the beer writer Michael Jackson yeah, v about michael jackson's beer hunters would probably be a very different story, wouldn't it?
Krishan:yeah saying that my my guide at that time was people were people like michael jackson. I we I've shown you the books, haven't I? Uh, tim, you know I'd have the pocket guide that was my reference pocket go michael jackson's guide to beer. It was a little pocket edition of all write-ups and reviews of all the different beers he'd drunk and we were like we need all these things in our catalogue.
Tim:To my mind, one of the most important people in modern beer writing, because he changed the language, him and Roger Protts, they changed the focus of how we describe beer, you know. I think ultimately they they shaped the direction of beer coming out of the 70s and the big six into the 80s and then into the 90s and and the eventual sort of development of more recipe focused beer, which would eventually then lead on into process focused and looking at, you know, uh, not just process focus, but also geographical process, geographical location. So, yeah, I would very much go down the route of saying both those people are very, very important people in in the development of modern beer. Uh, there were obviously other people around the world, but from a UK centric point of view, those two people- and lesser evil.
Krishan:Yes, that was one we tried recently. It was good. I think we enjoyed it. I think it was just if you presented that as a non-alcoholic option, as it would be, you'd be going. Actually, that is. You know, that's pretty decent, that's pretty good. It does what it says.
Ben:It's gonna do, doesn't it, you know? Oh yeah, and I think it does what it says it's gonna do very well. I think if you'd have given me that three years ago I said this is an alcohol-free stout, I'd have gone no, I don't believe you.
Tim:This can't be well, imagine it 10 years ago, like my god, I think I think 10 ago, even broaching the idea of an alcohol-free stout would have been a concept beyond most brewers. They would have just gone. No, they don't understand how that works.
Krishan:10 years ago, there were things, there were definitely things. I mean Germany definitely.
Tim:Yeah but nothing specifically stout-like Stout has always been an outlier in that sort of sphere. It's only really in the last I'm going to say the last four or five years that we've seen brewers actually approach something other than a pale ale or a lager.
Krishan:Yeah, I mean Because it's easier to do that Things like Nirvana stout the Nirvana stout were definitely around probably 2016-ish Okay, so 10 years Possibly. So they have been around. I think it's that long ago. Maybe I'm wrong.
Ben:I know the Big Drop launched in 2016 because I had to read up on that recently. So Big Drop did form in 2016.
Krishan:I don't know. Up on that recently it's a big drop did form in 2016. I don't know when they are.
Ben:I think Nirvana might have been round about that time as well.
Krishan:But you know, I think we're in a good space. We know we're in a good space when the big breweries suddenly are panicking. They're all bringing something out Heineken, bring one out, corona, bring one out, peroni, bring one out, guinness bring one out, and you're going. That's because the independent space went hey, we can offer this. And big breweries don't want to be left out. They want to dominate, they want to be in the market, they want to be front and center, which is a good thing as well, don't get me wrong. You know, if it puts more people's eyes on that type of product, then that's a good thing. But that's purely from territorial need from those guys. Now there is going to be a point where they just suddenly go we don't want to play anymore, and they're going to sully the waters on the way out of the door. That's always the fear that that's what they'll end up doing. They'll just go. You need to be drinking again. Nobody's nobody's drinking alcohol free beer.
Krishan:But I and again we've we've talked about this previously, ben I think people have always wanted it, always wanted a choice. It's and it'll always keep going back to this thing. It's that that you know, having that choice. You know that other thing, and that's where this comes from. The thing is it's like anything, as long as there's a demand for it, there'll always be a supply of it.
Krishan:There are plenty of breweries now who are going. Well, we can put this into our range or we're going to produce this type of product all the time as a focus of our business. As long as they have support and as long as there is an acceptability for this, then there's always going to be a market for it. There's always going to be output. I think the real change is going to be when you start to see it offered as standard in a pub, in a bar, or there's always going to be maybe two or three choices. A restaurant, you know, you see that in the food side, you know they'll go. Well, we have vegetarian options, we have vegan options, we have dietary options. You know we will flex for you, but why not put that into the beer space, because it's not going to be something that's going to be offered so much in the wine space.
Ben:Um, but, but nice to have the options but I feel like that yeah, we'll see it's it's changing and it's a good thing yes, I, I have noticed the change just in the past 12 months. Um, the amount of like. I don't have to do research before going out with friends anymore. I'm much more happy to just go somewhere and wait and see what they have, because nine times out of ten it's going to be something like a wiper and true, um, you know, it's not going to be just a. We've got becks blue, we've got heineken like that's not really, that's not really an issue anymore.
Ben:And I mean, worst case scenario, everywhere's got guinness at the moment, and I think again, guinness are a brand that we just about in in detail not too long ago as well. About that, guinness seemed to have made it acceptable for everybody to have an alcohol-free drink just by saying this is a guinness naught percent. We've made it, so it's fine. Now. Alcohol free beer is fine. Now, right, because we've made a guinness zero percent. And it's the one beer that everybody, when I get into the conversation about alcohol free beer, everybody always starts with have you tried guinness zero? And that's always the conversation and it's like, yeah, it's fine, but it's weird that it's got such a reputation.
Krishan:I mean from my point of view, from when I'm serving people, it was a slow burn, because I remember when Guinness Zero first appeared and the first time we got it it took forever to sell.
Krishan:We were like this stuff isn't selling, nobody wants it. It was like people would ask for it before I had it and they'd be like have you got it? Have you got it? Have you got it? You got it, have you got it? And I'd go, okay, I better get it, got it. And then people just went, uh, nobody mentioned it, nobody was like going have you got it? Um, and it just take forever to sell. Uh, and then we're like, okay, we'll give it pause, we'll bring it back another time. And then the moment ran out, people just come in and go we got it, have you got it? Have you got it? And I'm going, okay, we'll have another go, got it in. And then, but people coming in, they're going, you know, it's like, you know, two or three times a week somebody will come in and go guinness era, yeah, no problems.
Krishan:Obviously when we didn't have it we'd go here's all our other beer. This week I had somebody come in. It was an old, old guy came in, old guy, I you know, he was in his 65s, 70s, something like that Came in, said Guinness Zero please. And I was like, yeah, no problem, it took four cans. And he says, yeah, I really like this. It tastes like proper Guinness. And I'm like, oh, wow, this is cool.
Krishan:He says, yeah, what is a need for it? Because you've got this thing where you've got the biggest mechanism in the world and arguably, guinness is probably one of the largest brands, singular brands in the world, which is why it's worth £10 billion and they're going, we're going to sink our hard-earned into this and we're going to make it work. Obviously, they can do that. We also talked about this in terms of why Guinness works. Alcohol in Guinness is probably the least noticeable part of a Guinness. It's hidden behind everything else. No, it's not very highly hot. What it is is very malty and I think you know the same can be said of all stouts, so christian, to be honest yes stouts are not designed to be particularly highly hot no, no, no, no.
Krishan:I agree. The thing is guinness are guinness are you? They are stout in most people's eyes. You know if you're talking about do you want a Guinness or do you want a stout. What you're probably saying is do you want a Guinness? Do you want a Guinness? You're probably saying do you want a stout? Yeah, other stouts are available.
Tim:That goes back to the sort of the language and the disabusement of language around certain products, because throughout the 80s nobody referred to lager as lager. It was worth calling. You know, it's very, very clever marketing in that in that respect, because it put it in front of everybody's face and then they became synonymous. Calling was lager. Guinness is now synonymous with stout. Back from my time working in pubs, you know people come in and ask for guinness and I go well, we've got a stout, so it's. There's a yeah, yeah, it's. It's the adoption of certain terms to mean certain things but guinness has certainly legitimized alcohol-free drinking.
Krishan:I think it's definitely a good thing. It allows, allows people to have options. You know, as we've said before, you know some people just don't want to drink. Some people can't drink. You know they're like well, I'm on meds. You know I need to be drinking something, but I want to drink. It has to taste like a drink, but it doesn't have to have any alcohol in it. Pregnancy, health issues or weirdly, I just don't drink.
Ben:Yeah, you know, nice to have the option, nice to have the choice, nice to be able to say have that stamped by guinness to say it's okay, we approve of this, you're fine, you know, because it's such a massive thing to have the acceptance from from the industry really but from, I mean, acceptance from the industry equals acceptance from hospitality, equals acceptance from peers is my kind of take on it. So to be able to drink that there is something nice about having a Guinness in a Guinness glass and being in the pub Because you go yeah, this is just normal, this is just normal drinking.
Krishan:This is okay. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I think it's here to stay. I don't think it's going anywhere. I think you've got this space that, as I said, as long as people want it and I think they do I think it's much more of a, you know, you can have a non-alcoholic drink because you're driving or because you're on something else or you can't drink or all those reasons, and say I can be part of that conversation now, I can be part of that group now, and it's more of a case of I'm not being seen as the guy who's not drinking.
Tim:Yeah, I think that's the important thing, isn't it? It's the importance of not being the odd one out in the group, and massively.
Krishan:And being made to feel guilty about it.
Ben:Yeah, or to feel like you're being looked at. I've said so many times, if you give me a Coca-Cola, it's like you may as well shine a spotlight on me in a pub and I don't want that.
Ben:You know I'm very open about my alcoholism and why I don't drink alcohol. But that doesn't mean that I just want to go into a room with a placard and tell people I want to go into a room and have a beer, and if people want to talk to me about alcohol-free beer, I'll gladly invite them on a podcast and talk about it for an hour. But you know before.
Krishan:You've won an award for that don't you know?
Ben:Well, well, silver award winning, if not quite gold, but um do you know what that's? The acknowledgement is acknowledgement you know, yeah, it was mad it's.
Krishan:The whole point is, you know you are sitting in a room with peers that are well respected and that's that's worth its weight. That's worth its weight. You know, when you're sitting with those people and they're going, you're one of us.
Ben:That for me, the biggest anxiety I had going into that, like going to the dinner, was because, you know, I didn't see myself as a part of this world. I very much saw myself as a person on the outside that was fascinated by it. Very much saw myself as a person on the outside that was fascinated by it. And you know, as someone that only talks about non-alcohol you know the British Guild of Beer Writers you think, okay, these guys are. You know, this is the real thing, these guys are into the real thing and it was.
Ben:I was curious as to what they'd think of alcohol-free beer. Obviously, I know that a lot of these people have done articles on the subject and have discussed the subject. But there's always that thing in the back of your brain that says these people just care about it because they have to, because it exists. But some of the conversations with people in that room, the things that they were saying to me about this kind of sphere of alcohol-free beer, it has made me love the beer industry even more, because it's like these people just they, they just get it and they're saying like the evolution of this and the growth of this is only a good thing for beer and that was the like. Above everything, that was my favorite thing from that evening was leaving feeling like I had a place in the world of beer, and the fact that I don't drink alcohol or can't drink alcohol doesn't impact that. That was the biggest takeaway for me because, yeah, nothing beats that.
Krishan:I think the interesting thing in your future is when you're suddenly the guest, the random talking head, you know, on some chat show or daytime TV program where you're the guy that's talking about the alcohol-free thing, then that might be an interesting space for you. I think that's going to happen. Uh, I'd love that to happen?
Ben:I think it will I think it will.
Krishan:I think you know you're, you're perfectly in the right space for that. You know it's only just got to happen once and there you go, there's, there's that other thing that happens, I think the other one where I think you know if you've made it, you've written an a an article for camera or b the better one writing an article for drinks retailing then you've made it, then you're, then you're published. Uh, yeah, I think if drinks?
Krishan:retailing, drinks retailing come to you and turn around and go well, you know we want you to write an article on, you know, alcohol-free beer and things like that. That would be an interesting thing because they're the voice, especially on the off-trade side, where you know people will read those articles and make decisions, and that's not just from like, let's say, the small guy like me, that's all the way to the top People like you know, pedermark Dispensers, the big supermarkets and stuff like that. People are making real decisions and going. I'm going to read this article written by Ben. That also would be an insane thing. Who knows?
Ben:Yeah, well, that's it. In the last three years, enough has happened for me to go. Okay. This is, I mean, I decided to stop drinking at a very good time, because imagine if I'd have been trying to drop there and you know heineken, there wouldn't be much content really would for. And today we're going to talk about heineken again, like whereas. Now it's like if I wanted to put a new beer out every day, which I I mostly do, to be honest, but I could probably do two beers a day and probably keep that going for a year, I think, and still do a new beer twice a day, um, yeah, which is just there must be, it's gonna say there must be so many companies just sending you stuff now and go and have a look at our beer.
Ben:There must be the were, the were, and I'm not going to say that I'm not appreciative, but I think a lot of breweries have collared onto the fact that I'm going to have to buy it anyway because it's what I do. So when I started I got far more sent to me than I do now. Like I'll still, don't get me wrong. Like I still get looked after, which is lovely.
Krishan:Like Barsham.
Ben:Brewery sent me every now and again when alex is feeling kind but like. So barsh and brewery recently released a alcohol-free beer and they sent me like a palette of it and I was like geez, I'm never gonna get through it. It was coming, it was gone in two days. But now I think when breweries release a beer it's like, oh be good to see what Ben thinks of this. And they know I'm going to buy it because I've got to buy it, because it's what I do. But you know what? I don't mind buying the stuff because I'd be doing it anyway. It's lovely to get sent stuff, but also there is. I mean the other day when I popped in to see you because you had my lovely Colab beer in the shop I was about to mention that it was just so lovely to be there and to look at all these beers.
Ben:And you know I left with beers that I didn't need to film, but I wanted them because we were talking about beer and I thought I really want a German Hells now because I'm just looking at it. So I left with them and I love that. I love going and buying beer from bottle shops primarily. There's just such a joy in that and I think it's because it's something that I used to enjoy doing, like when I was a drinker and we we come to sturchley wines and spirits and we go oh, I'm gonna get a big, big share in bottle because it feels lovely. I still get that now when I go and look at your range. It's just great. There's no better feeling.
Krishan:That's appreciated. I appreciate that because at the end of the day, that's really. You know, other than our objective is to sell beer or sell alcoholic products or non-alcoholic products. You know it's nice when people come in and go. I like what you're doing, I enjoy, I appreciate what you'reic products. You know it's nice when people come in and go. I like what you're doing, I enjoy, I appreciate what you're doing. You know, because for me it's.
Krishan:You know, if it was that easy, everybody would do it, and I know not everybody can do it, and I know it's not that easy because it takes work, it takes effort. There's a lot of well, I'll say planning. It's not planning, but there's a lot of thought goes into what we end up doing and you know, uh, I take my hat off to any business that turns around and goes. I want to be that good that other businesses, you know, are going to look at me and go. You know you're doing it, you're doing it right. I think there are. There are quite a few of us, but we're a rare breed now because it's hard to do what we do. That idea of use it or lose it, it's never been so true, even for a business like us. We've been here 25 years and it still feels like if people don't come in?
Krishan:don't use the facilities we have. We won't come in. Don't kind of use the facilities we have. You know we won't be here. It's simple, it's you know more. So Once upon a time I would turn around every day of the week. I can open my doors and I'll be okay. It doesn't feel like that anymore. The world has changed.
Tim:The advent of subscription services and direct sales to customers from breweries is very much affecting certainly our football and indeed the entire retail space as it sort of expands outside of the world of beer here. And we have been over the last couple of years christian retooling that re, re wallpapering, repurposing the uh, the online store that we've, that we've had for many years. It was in the background, didn't function brilliantly, but served a purpose to a certain extent.
Krishan:So the idea is Especially during lockdown, especially during lockdown.
Tim:Yes, so the idea is with the website as it's being developed is that it will not 100% mirror the in-store experience, but it will certainly give people flavour of what we offer in-store. So initially click and collect. I'm not revealing anything secretive here or top secret here. So initially click and collect. I'm not. I'm not revealing anything sort of secretive here or top secret here.
Tim:I'm actually so initially that's available now which is available now with a view uh once, once the inventory is a little bit fuller to uh what we call final mile, which would service birmingham and the very sort of local areas and then eventually something approaching something like a national delivery service.
Ben:It is interesting. It's, I mean, times do change, don't they? And people do need to change with these times. But I think that there's certain things that need to be long-term fixtures in communities, and bottle shops are definitely one of those things. It's so important to support bottle shops. Oh yeah, for me, there's four people that made me feel like I could do this and I'm not just talking do the page on the podcast, I'm talking could do sobriety. It's Martin Dixon, who is another alcohol free beer commentator. It's Mashgang I suppose the whole of Mashgang. Mark Dredge, because he took alcohol free beer to television and made it like we're going to talk about this, and it's yourselves, because it was. I could go to my bottle shop and have a chat for an hour about these beers and not feel like I was stupid for asking about them. You know, um, oh god, I think they're really important spaces.
Krishan:I will take my, I will take my time when I have it and I will talk about whatever it is that somebody is interested in. Um, I think it's all important. So you know, I don't look at people who drink alcohol-free stuff alcohol-free beers, wine, spirits, cider, as you know, weirdos, they're not being from that side of the fence. I kind get it. The reason I do drink now is it was more of a necessity to further understand what I was for a long time just talking about. Uh, on the other hand of that, even now, you know, weirdly, I probably don't nearly as much as I possibly could. Tim will be testament to that. He's like have you drunk that beer yet? No, I haven't. Six months later, I'm still not drunk yet. So I will take it and leave it. I always have. I'm now in that space where I just go well, if I want a drink, I'll have a drink. If I'm out and I'm in the right situation, yeah, I'll have a drink. But even then I will just go stopped. Um, sometimes, occasionally, don't stop.
Krishan:But you know somebody somebody will slap me in the face at some point go somebody will throw you out of their hotel room. Yes, yeah, there is that. Yes, there is that, but, mate, mate, we're at the dorchester, so you know I'm taking the alcohol I'm drinking it. Was that one of?
Ben:the awards evenings. That was drinks retailing awards last year. Tell me a bit about that. How did that feel?
Krishan:Oh, that's insane. Drinks retailing awards. Okay, so, for people who don't know what it is, it is the off-trade awards ceremony run by drinks retailing news awards ceremony run by drinks uh, drinks retailing news. This is the off trade side awards given out to the retail side of alcohol sales. Um, right from small store right up to the big supermarkets, everybody's invited, uh to play along and it's seen as, effectively, the oscars of that space. You know, it's the big. It's the big award because there isn't really something that's set up that encompasses retail in that space as a, as a category anyway, um, it's made up of lots of different categories beer, beer and cider, wine, spirits, champagne, luxury drinks retailer, multiple retailer, et cetera, et cetera, small and big. So that's small categories, as in independent categories and national categories.
Krishan:We've been lucky enough to have been nominated three times with four awards. So four times times three years. So, beer, uh, so best independent, a beer retailer. Twice, three times, sorry, and then once as best drinks retailer independent drinks retailer. That covers everything, and, and that's insane. So first time it was in 2014,. That was Beer Retailer 2019, beer Retailer, beer and Cider Retailer and Drinks Retailer. That is, in its own right, crazy. We've never won, though We've got close, got close, we got close and, in terms of, we got to the finals and that was it. But do you know what? That's good enough for me. We got to the finals and that was it. But do you know what? That's good enough for me? It's insane that we even live in that space because all we do is we're just shopkeepers that happen to do something. That's a little bit interesting.
Krishan:But obviously, when you get nominated for these things, you go well, we must be doing something right and we must be pretty good at what we do. I'm not going to say that, but that's for everybody else to say. And these things kind of just go. You know what we're saying it. You're pretty good at what you do. So every year February, they have these awards. They're at the Dorchester Black Tie event and it is insanely exciting. I think you know, just at the in the room on the day, um, and be in that space is is just crazy. Winning or not, you know it doesn't matter. At that point, you know, winning's the bonus. I've always said, uh, 2025 has just gone through. Another business within birmingham that always gets nominated is loki wines. Okay, so I think pretty much every year there's something they're nominated for. This year I think they they won an award, I'm not sure what category.
Krishan:I think this loki wines have won more than they've won so many of them over the years. You know, best wine retailer, best hybrid retailer. I think they've done best chain and I think they've won it so many times. It's insane. I think this year they got three nominations, which is crazy. They definitely are doing something right, but they got three nominations this year. I don't know of any other business that's ever got three nominations all in one year for that particular event. So that's crazy.
Krishan:But they've been on Decanter's list, they've been on Harper's Best 100 list. I think they were number one last year. I think it was Harper's list of retailers. It might have been retailers, but that's all. In the wine space. They've won Decanter's Best Wine and stuff like that. Anyway, they're very good. So, yeah, uh, big shout out to phil and his team. So yeah, drinks retailing awards crazy. That's always one that is always a surprise when it happens. Um, the other one, obviously last year was a seba business awards which we won the category, won the category of best independent craft beer retailer, which is also like crazy, because if anybody knows what's who seba are and hopefully everybody does uh, society of independent brewers and associates, I think, and they are the representative body of the brewing industry um, so for them years they've they've been focused solely on breweries, but they have now widened their remit to look at the adjacent parts to to the brewing industry.
Tim:So so retail is one of their most recent focuses, which hence why we've got that um but that was, that was genuinely a surprise, wasn't it?
Krishan:yeah, so I I, I threw my hat into the ring, put my little application in and, yeah, I think within a week, the deadline. I think I put it in on deadline day and a week later, or something like that, they were like oh, you've been nominated. I'm like bloody hell, I haven't just put the bloody nomination in. So that was an absolute surprise. And then, like two weeks later, we're on a train to Liverpool, or three weeks later and obviously they hold their awards at BRX. It's the furthest thing away from Dorchester, it's literally a conference hall type thing. You know lots of exhibitors trying to do their thing with the brewing scene. So I'm there going.
Krishan:Oh, there's nothing here for me, except for the fact that I know a whole bunch of these people, which is the only reason I didn't get bored, because I was like, well, this is a brewing, this is a brewing exhibition and not not a retail exhibitions. You know there's hardly anything for me, but you know, it's still very, very cool to go and visit because there were, you know, lots of people there that were within the beer industry that we admire and we admire and hopefully we support by stocking their products as well. So that was just a really crazy thing just to be there as a retailer. It's like bringing a knife to a gunfight. And we got to the end of the evening. They're doing the awards and suddenly they're on our category other retailers there as well and suddenly they call our name. And I'm like on our category other retailers there as well and suddenly they call our name. And I'm like, bloody hell, I wasn't expecting this, because normally I don't win anything ever.
Ben:Gareth Southgate of the bottle shop. That's it.
Krishan:That's it. And I'm like, well, you know what, we'll go, we'll take this. So, yeah, no, I'm absolutely proud of this one because, the end of the day, I mean this is like you're, you're being awarded something by people who support the industry that you support and you're going, well, you know when, when you're, you know, talking about the best in the room, you know you're talking about the best in the room according to those people that say they are the best in the room, which which sometimes you go. Well, it's just whatever that is. You know, cber, I think have you know absolute legitimacy in this case? You know they are the people that you know do know what they're talking about. They are the people who do support an absolute you know, absolutely support an industry. So if they're going to call my name out or our name out, then bloody fantastic. So you know we're legitimately, you know award winning, and a good award winning for me. So you know that's good as well. I only had a pint then that day. I was like can't drink too much.
Tim:Amusingly, I was actually sat here when the news came through because I got my son, so I couldn't justify going to Liverpool. I was actually sat here when the news came through Because I've got my son, so I couldn't justify going to Liverpool. But I just received a picture of a very shell-shocked looking Christian.
Krishan:Oh yeah, there wasn't a good picture that day of me, I think I was just like a rabbit in headlights. The shock. It was a shock, but it also just like I. I just had the dirtiest grin the whole evening after I got this announcement. So every time somebody took a picture I just like the most terrible photo of me. Uh, I'm not very photogenic generally, but you know I was like it's like that the whole time just me, it's like me at the um at the guild awards.
Ben:I look back at pictures and it's like I just look like a, like a school boy that's been taken on a school trip somewhere. Just me with like holding my silly little silver placard going.
Krishan:That's not silly, it's not silly, but it's not silly, it's not silly, but it's silly that it happened yeah.
Krishan:Which is fine, isn't it? It puts you in interesting places. It ends up putting you in interesting places, you know, and that's the crazy thing about what you end up doing. You're going. Well, you know what? All I'm doing is this thing. How did beer get me here? Yeah, how did my efforts of doing what I do like everybody else get me where I am, or where, in these really weird spaces? You know, in a million years I'd never think I'd be at something like the dorchester. You know, in a million years, I wouldn't have thought, you know, I'd end up being, you know, at somewhere like the house of commons, and you've done the same thing. Um, you're going because of, because of what I do there. You are, you know, and you're walking through the great hall, the palace of westminster, and you go. This is, this is something.
Ben:This is something that I would never imagine would happen, or probably imagine ever happening again uh, although it's such a moment walking through westminster, where I've said to you previously, I was walking through westminster and just looking up at the ceiling and thinking this is where the Queen was and where Philip and Holly skipped, I hadn't have cracked that first can of low life or whatever it was. It wouldn't have been low life because that was very recent, but that first can of alcohol, free beer I would not be where I was. I'm seeing the photo. Yeah, that is literally the face of someone that says how has this happened?
Krishan:yeah, like what, what, what, anyway, yeah. So yeah, it's, it is insane. It's great because, at the end of the day, once I'm done, once we're out of this space and we've moved on to whatever it is I end up at and I'm just go. You know what. This is what I did and it was fun and I enjoyed it and it was crazy. That's great. You know it's not. It's not like. You know it's not bad, bearing in mind all I do is run a shop. You know it's not like. You know I'm, you know, doing something else. But you know, if what you do is what you're doing and you're doing it well and you're enjoying it and people appreciate it, then hey, happy days, it's it's, it's it, it's good, it's worth it then 2024 I don't know if you would agree with this, but from my perspective it's going back to the um, to the liquid.
Ben:I feel like in alcohol free form it's been the year of lager. For me, I think 2024 is when british breweries started releasing lager. That was very, very good, because we didn't really have any of it. But then this year, or the year just gone, we've started seeing a lot more lagers that you would open and go hmm, this is excellent. But it isn't just a Lucky Saint or a Freedan. I'm seeing a lot more decent lagers come out.
Ben:I mean, Bashkang did a whole plethora of lagers and then you've had various other lagers that have made their way to market since. Have you noticed that at all, and what do you think will be the next thing to crack with alcohol-free beers?
Krishan:I've seen lagers. I don't know if that's the thing that we kind of went as in the lager, and we must have it. I think, you know, based on the kind of thing we try and do is mix it up, but there are way more lagers. But I think the nice thing is that there is a mix. There's lots of different things going on. The lagers have been very good this year, or rather 2024, I don't know. I'm seeing a lot of pales at the moment, pales and ipas. They just seem to be the dominant form uh, I've nailed it.
Ben:That's the thing that the pales they've they've had spot on for a fair bit of time now. Um, I think it seems to be since liquid hop or maybe it's just since I've started reading the bloody labels but since I've seen hop extracts being used in a lot of these pails, it's like oh, there we go, Now we're making craft beer. But I think in 2024, just the improvement of lagers has been something that I've gone from.
Tim:Wow these have gone from to oh, I was gonna say a lot of. That's probably down to confidence, because because lager is seen as the pinnacle of the brewer's art, there's nowhere to hide with lager, and we are now seeing a number of lager focused breweries, brewers that have done tenure in the German brewing training system, which are very, very focused on just perfecting lager. So we're now seeing that bleed through into brewers that are now feeling a bit more confident to do lager and then to adapt that lager as an alcohol-free product. Where do they go from here? I don't know. That's an interesting question.
Tim:Do we see the development? If we're specifically talking about the use of liquid hops, do we see the development of, uh, heavier, more hop forward products? Simply, where would I like to see it go? I'd like to see a little bit more towards the special, specialist end of the spectrum, more of a focus on things like red ipas and black ipas, rather than just straight pails. That. That, that to me would be a genuinely interesting space to see low alcohol go. Um, and that's not just my own selfish needs talking, because, yeah, that, that that's my preferred drinking space, if I'm being honest. So so see low alcohol follow.
Krishan:That that would that would be great I think that where we are at the moment, you know again, staring at the picture that's in front of me, you know there are so many different spaces that are being explored, not just by, let say, people having a go at different things, but you know spaces that excel at those things that they do well. So you know Germany, you know you're seeing those lagers appear, you're seeing those vice beers appear. You know from the people that that's all they do and they do it well. You're seeing Belgian breweries step up. You know, and they're bringing in, you know, brands like La Trappe bringing, you know, a Belgian-style Zero or Delirium coming along and having a go.
Krishan:The Schoof, mcschoof, the shoof brewery sorry. You know. Japanese brewery, hitachino nest, doing their ginger ale. You see those guys coming along and and putting in their effort and you're going well, you're good at what you do and you're bringing something to the party. So part of that is that whole. Well, there's a whole legitimate space here. We don't want to be left out. But also they're not going to do it unless it's as good as it can be, as good as they believe their effort can be. You know they're not just cynically throwing something into the ring, although you know there is a little bit of cynicism in that, but at the same time they're not going to attach their name to something if they didn't think it was going to be of quality. Someone who would never do something like the Augustina Augustina put an alcohol-free beer last year. Start of last year. It was insane. I mean, there was only one batch that ever came to the UK it was very divisive as well.
Ben:I read articles about it from German drinkers. Yeah, the Rainbow Mafia Strikes again was my favorite one.
Krishan:how, how dare you, how dare you put that beer out? You know, yeah, you, you sully the memory of all the beer drinkers in the, the beer cellars and things like that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think there was a little bit more of a political distribution issue going on and more from my side I was, I was, I was just watching the whole whole thing play out, which is probably why we've not seen any more, since it'd be nice for it to come back. I want it to come back, but I don't know if, augustine, we're actually going to knock another one out. If they if they do, that'd be great, but if they don't, it's fine. There are other breweries that will play along.
Ben:Yeah, don't be sad when it's ended. Be happy it happened.
Krishan:Be happy for that second. It happened. But you know, I think there are so many places to explore at the moment. You know, you've got the Radler side, you've got the hot water side. Hot water's an interesting one. I love recommending hot waters to people because it's like here's that other thing that you didn't know existed, and also something else. You know, if you don't want a beer but you want something else, there you go. It's not. It's not water water, it's not strawberry water, it's not grapefruit water.
Tim:It's not cucumber water, it's hoppy water and the good thing about it also is it is genuinely gluten-free. We did have a very, very sort of. We had a CDAC come in recently who was asking for I need something that's gluten-free and I need something that's low alcohol and sugar-free and very sort of diabetic focused. And we were scratching our heads and the answer was just literally staring us in the face. It was like because I don't want sparkling water, I don't want still water, I don't want squash here's some hot water.
Krishan:Yeah, it's a wonderful thing, isn't it? I think the hot water thing is also interesting, that if you want to try hops without all that beer getting in the way, if you want to know what hot tastes like, it's a really good way of kind of working out what you know.
Ben:Nectar on tastes like idaho 7 or whatever uh, I did find that very useful actually when because this was when last summer was when I kind of realized that I had to try to understand a little bit more about what this liquid was. You know, it's all well and good. Like my place in this field is to is to show people that these beers exist and and nothing more. That's how I always viewed it was. Look at this range and if you like the sound of it, then there it is. And then, as I had more people asking me various questions, it was like I need to, I need to know more about this for me to really for me to feel confident in being able to give not recommendations, but just just talk about it, and hop port was really interesting for that, so that's a really good point it's, uh, it's, it's.
Krishan:I think it's an interesting side hustle in this space. I don't think it's still as popular as it should be, but I think I think it also, I think, leads by the fact that if it is it summer or not, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think. If it's summer, then I think it's definitely something. It's much more approachable. But we'll see. You know, it's a space I'm curious enough to be able to go. You know what? I will take a bit of that, um, so I want it as part of my portfolio. But again, you know, the objective has always been have as many different things going on to keep people interested, keep people, give people options on the kind of thing they want. You know, not just that one thing I don't want just lagers or just pails. It's the same with the rest of the range. I don't want a shop full of hasty pail ales, because that would be boring. And also, you know what about everybody else? So I want that diversity. Diversity is important.
Ben:What does the optimist and then the pessimist in you say when I ask where do you think the future of this sector lies as a whole? Do you think it's a fad? Do you think that the industry will move on without it, or do you think it will continue to expand at the rate it's expanding now?
Krishan:I think it's here to stay. As I said before, I think very early on in this conversation. I think it's as long as people want it conversation. I think it's as long as people want it Now, as long as it's sustainable, breweries feel it's worth their while. They're only going to do it as long as it's worth their while. If it isn't, they're not going to do it. Box is open. The can has been opened.
Krishan:It's very hard for that stuff to go back in. You could look at other markets and go. You know, here's the thing about this. You know, let's say thing about this. You know, let's say the vegan market. You know, and all these restaurants suddenly just can't operate as vegan restaurants because there aren't enough people to pay the bills. That doesn't mean that thing's going to go away. The people that supported it before it became a public thing, you know everybody wanted a piece of the action. They were there. They're still going to be there afterwards. They're still going to want that thing. Vegetarians aren't going to go away, you know. They're still going to be. You're still going to.
Krishan:You know people who want to drink will still want to drink. There will still be businesses that will facilitate that. It will be the smaller companies, it will be the niche brands. It's possibly going to be less visible, but it'll be people like me, businesses like me, that will go. Actually, I think there's still space for it. I think we've not seen top note of this yet. Yeah, I'm still waiting for.
Krishan:You know, slightly outside of london. You know temperance bars, you know, I know there's been a couple in london. You know there's. There's been the temperance off license as well in london, but not as a independent thing. I was thinking it was part of. I can't remember the name of them, um, people, people that just advocate, uh, alcohol free drinking. Uh, there's a little body isn't there. I can't remember who they're called. They they opened one, um, but just somebody turn around and go. You know what I can do this and why not make it a thing you could say cynically, that's just, you know, showing off or it's just being, you know, uh, tension grabbing, which you know sometimes those things are.
Krishan:I don't think it's going anywhere just yet. I think we're we're at the early days of that. It will, like everything, peak and fall away, but I think people will always want these things, maybe in the future, maybe 10 years down the line. Five years down the line. However, these along these things last. It's. You know it may contract, but I don't think we're anywhere near that yet. I think we're going forwards. I think it's just going to get more and more populated with, hopefully, more interesting things.
Tim:For me. I think that because it's now gained a mainstream foothold, I don't see it going anywhere anytime soon. As Christian says, maybe a little bit of contraction in people's interest in specifically brewing low and low alcohol style beers, possibly because of that mainstream foothold, the guinnesses etc. I don't think we're going to see a reduction in that. Maybe it might sort of from the small producers. They might find something a bit more interest, a bit more interested in that at that particular point in time and maybe put it to bed for a little while. But it will come back. You know, as long as there's a community of people that are committed to mindful drinking and also to sober drinking, then it's not going to go anywhere. It will always be certainly on our shelves, but I would imagine in the in the wider retail space it'll be there as well so what you're telling me is basically I'm not going to be out of work for a little while I am.
Ben:I certainly hope that you're right. So, christian tim, thank you very much for taking time out of your day to come and chat to me. I actually I need to pop in tomorrow anyway, because my nan has asked me to get some stouts for my cousin, or there's some weird errand that I've been sent on. So I'll be in no problem tomorrow I'll be there.
Krishan:Thank you for asking us uh onto your podcast. Um, you know it's uh appreciated. I think this is the first one we've actually made it into. There's been a few people, few podcasts, that kind of go, oh, we'll love you on our podcast, but they'd never call back. So you know, hopefully this will be the prompt, you know you've got us first and hopefully you know the rest of them will start knocking on our door and go, hey, you know we heard what you were doing and it didn't sound that crap. There'd be fools not to Absolutely, absolutely. But you, you know it's appreciated, absolutely. You know, any chance we get to sort of talk about what we do, even you know uh on a bigger basis, is appreciated. It's. It's rare that we get platform, you know it's it's rather, rather than me just ranting to one person about what we do and all the things I hate about it. Mainly, that's Tim.
Tim:And that one person swearing back at you.
Ben:Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the Sober Boozers Club podcast. My name is Ben Gibbs. You can find me on all of the social media platforms. At Sober Boozers Club To find Sturchley Wines and Spirits, head on down to Sturgeley High Street in sunny old Birmingham. You will not be disappointed with their fantastic selection of alcohol-free beers. For now, thank you for listening. I'll catch you, my friends, very soon.