Sober Boozers Club

The Sober Boozers Club: Transatlantic Beer Adventures with Reducaholic

• Ben Gibbs • Season 2 • Episode 6

Share episode

The craft beer world is smaller than you think – that's what I discovered when chatting with my first-ever American guest, Tyler McMahon (aka Reducaholic). Tyler has made it his mission to map every venue across the United States serving quality alcohol-free beer, creating an invaluable resource for the sober curious and non-drinkers alike.

Our conversation quickly revealed fascinating contrasts between UK and US alcohol-free beer cultures. While Athletic Brewing might offer disappointing supermarket options in Britain, they're brewing hundreds of innovative styles stateside that never cross the Atlantic. Meanwhile, Tom Holland's Bero beer generates buzz on both continents, though with dramatically different availability.

We dig deep into why draft alcohol-free beer remains uncommon in America (spoiler: it involves outdated safety concerns) while exploring the explosion of alternatives like hop water and zero-proof cocktails. Tyler shares how his personal journey from craft beer enthusiast to mapping NA options began with a simple spreadsheet that evolved into a comprehensive guide for drinkers across America.

The heart of our conversation centers on how non-alcoholic options are transforming drinking culture itself. We discuss "zebra striping" (alternating alcoholic and non-alcoholic drinks), the stigma still attached to choosing alcohol-free options, and why having a good alcohol-free beer on tap is revolutionary for inclusion. Both of us agree that the future isn't about prohibition but about creating more options for everyone, regardless of their relationship with alcohol.

Whether you're sober curious, fully alcohol-free, or just interested in the evolving beverage landscape, this transatlantic beer chat offers insights into how two countries with strong drinking traditions are reimagining what it means to enjoy a good pint. Follow Tyler @Reducaholic to explore his American alcohol-free beer map and discover new options wherever your travels take you.

Support the show

To find out more about the wonderful world of alcohol free beer and to check in with me head to www.instagram.com/sober_boozers_club

This episode is not brought to you by any sponsors because nobody wants to sponsor me.

Speaker 1:

This is the Sober Boozers Club Podcast. This podcast, we're going to talk to people from within these circles and find out a little bit about their journey. So you sit back, relax and enjoy. This is my first ever episode with an american guest, and it is tyler mcmahon, aka reducerholic. Now, what tyler has been doing for the past few years is mapping all of the fantastic venues in the states providing alcohol-free beer. He's a fantastic commentator on all things alcohol-free and I really was looking forward to having a chat with him about the beer scene over there. Tyler, thank you for taking time out of your morning. Is it morning? Well, it's 12,. Right Midday it's 7. 7 for me. You're my first transatlantic guest, so what a pleasure.

Speaker 2:

You're my first transatlantic beer podcast, so likewise.

Speaker 1:

We're making firsts. Two things I'm going to ask you about first, which are probably so boring for you, but for a humble Brit it's all I can think about. The first is athletic and the second is beer-o. So athletic, I've had some of their beers in the UK. There's some that you can get in the supermarkets and they're terrible, but I'm hearing that over your side of the ocean they're kind of all right some of them. What's the? What's the deal there? Do they just hate us?

Speaker 2:

wow, that's a good question. I like athletic and I think the athletic was the first nab year that I had. That was I was said wow, okay, this is something and I'd had some other ones at that point. I do think their, their core range, definitely has a lot of competition now. So maybe the uk, where there's a market that's much more developed, that could be why relative I don't know which ones you tried I really do like free wave, which is the orange can. I think it's a solid baseline hazy, mass market hazy, while the blue can is a lot of people's favorite. It's lesser on my list but it's the first one that got me to like them. And then the yellow can Upside Down it's a basic pale with a little bit of hops in it, and then I think it hits the gluten-removed folks too.

Speaker 1:

I mean to maybe give them another go. I see some posts that come out from people in the States. It's like athletic, like black IPA and things like this. It's like what, what, why aren't you giving that?

Speaker 2:

to us. It's outrageous. I think that's where one thing that I think athletic doesn't get enough credit for and I hope one day they open a european brewery or something like that so you guys get that, because yeah, me too mass gang has brewed 200 beers, right? I don't know if athletics that far behind. I know some of them are repeats but they're new versions. There's been a Black IPA, a couple versions of it. There's been a Hoppy Amber which I absolutely love and wish they'd bring back. They have an amazing sour that comes out next month with, I think, blueberry and Lemon, called Soul Sour for Black History Month. That beer is incredible. They're sour series, a summer sour, seasonal sour series. It's amazing, like they're. They're top notch.

Speaker 2:

But I think athletics are polarizing among the na purist community, which is kind of unfortunate because I think they're really good. I think they're, you know, I mean in the craft beer space you're gonna have the bigger ones and you're gonna have smaller ones. But I think athletic, I mean it's like four or six beers a month I have. I've been gone for two months. I have eight new athletics to try wow, that's mad.

Speaker 1:

That is mad. It's good to hear that you know they're they're doing good things, because the the picture I get of them as as a brit is just oh, that's that supermarket beer. That's not very good, that just takes up space from you know craft breweries in the uk. So to hear that they're actually you know putting good things out is interesting and I'm also very jealous. But that kind of leads me on to beer, talking about purists and about, like, some breweries being big, etc. Etc. What is that about?

Speaker 2:

wow, you're, uh, you're, you're tricky. Okay, I'm a marvel nerd, so I obviously I I like tom holland. I think he's amazing spider-man um, I was actually just writing this to somebody. I really appreciate that and the fact that he's what? 27 and he's already sober. He's like I like crap beer. So I'm gonna start my own line and he seems to be authentically behind it, unlike some of the other brands, and I appreciate it.

Speaker 2:

I'm a bit of a bias because if you read the side of the can, it's brewed in colorado, uh, which is where I'm from and where I'm sitting from right now. So the more na is out of here the better, because we're like the king of craft beer, uh, but we've been a little bit behind in the NA space. As an overall beer, I thought the Kingston Pills was a solid offering and I thought the Wheat was good as well. The Hazy seems to be polarizing among people, I know, just because it feels more like a light tropical pale with hazing it, as opposed to a true smack you over the head hazy IPA. I like it as a beer. It's refreshing post bike ride. I have no problem with it.

Speaker 2:

I think I worry it. It's going to become one of those super, you know, supermarket, uh, beers too, you know, but I think it's going to be a good one. You need, you need a baseline of those that are good, just like in the craft beer space. Back in the day we had fat tire and sierra nevada pale and those that you were like. Well, if I'm at a restaurant and I see those, I'm not going to cry. It's better than a budweiser still tastes decent, right, and I think euro and athletics core beers will eventually fit into that space as it grows here yeah, I completely agree into like there is a space for really good supermarket beers as well as your more bespoke like bottle shop offerings.

Speaker 1:

And I think it's really important that we have accessible beers in these accessible places, because I always talk about heineken a lot and beers like that that just ruin non-alcoholic beer for me and for so many others. Because what's most people's first impression of alcohol-free beer over in the UK is probably Beck's Blue and it's not good. It's just not good.

Speaker 2:

It's not, it's not. A couple years ago, before I tried to become fully sober, I was in New York and I used the athletic, athletic Beer Finder to find Athletic and I didn't, and I ended up getting Beck's Blue. And I didn't make it to Dry July, my Dry July. I didn't get one bottle into that Beck's Blue. I was like no, can't do this.

Speaker 1:

Sorry. This also backs up my point in terms of, like, I drink alcohol-free beer because I have to right how many people that are kind of teetering on the edge and are leaning into non-alcohol beers as a way to not drink alcohol try a becks blue and then go back to alcohol and never touch alcohol-free beer again. There's a big responsibility there to make a liquid that is genuinely good and genuinely will will pass for a decent beer. So if tom holland and biro are doing that and you know he's been very open about his sobriety and all of all of that as well, which I'm I'm here for then I think it's it's it's fine. More options are are good for now, because we're in such early days really of where the industry is hopefully going to end up. I think people at this would get involved and do it for the right reason is a good thing. I just don't understand why it's not in the uk again, I think it's landed it's sold out, though.

Speaker 2:

What's this? Yeah, it landed in the uk and some of it already sold out, like that. I've been following them a bit, did we?

Speaker 1:

miss this. I call myself a bloody beer guy. I didn't even I haven't spotted. I knew that they were doing teasers and it was like, oh, soon. I was like, yeah, oh, you should fucking hope so soon you've got a beer called kingston pills. For fuck's sake. Like the audacity. Do you know what? What pissed me off? And then we'll stop talking about these two rather mundane breweries. But what pissed me off? They ran their whole social campaign and it was like coming soon, alcohol free beer, like all of this. It was like, oh, not once did they mention america. And then they launched. And all of a sudden you go back on their post history and it's all us, only us only. It's like you didn't tell us that at the time.

Speaker 1:

Okay, like yeah anyway, I think I need to calm down. That's a trigger for me, apparently. So how did this whole thing start for you? Because you've been doing like mad things with na beer and the map and all of this business that you've got going on how did you get into alcohol-free beers and when did you decide to make this like such a big part of your life?

Speaker 2:

so I always loved craft beer. I think it was in college. I couldn't. I didn't really like macros. I had some. I grew up in the middle of nowhere. I had some bad episodes of macros and all this stuff. So I homebrewed my way through my senior year of college and I really loved craft beer. But I've lived abroad for I don't know 15 years in nepal and there's no. There was no craft beer there until 2015. So now I come back, I'm like three, four craft beers a day. And, uh, I came back in 2019.

Speaker 2:

I was like this isn't healthy, because then by then craft beer had hit nepal, kind of. So I was like also, too many craft beers a day there. I never like full-on drunken episodes. So one day I just googled just indy colorado craft brewery, mate and a beer and groovy and well-being showed up and I was like, all right, these sound interesting, they're all right. I only got my hands on well-being's victory, which is their electrolyte and fumes that had a little bit of odd taste. Well-being is actually great. This was the early days of groovy and I really appreciate groovy's. Uh, take feedback and improve their beers, because those now they're quite good.

Speaker 2:

But then athletics started stalking me on Instagram. You know how that happens. So I'm like what is this gimmick? And I came back in 2020 and I found an athletic. I was like whoa, all right, so I got to start incorporating it. So now it's like it became a thing. I'm nerdy, so I'm going to try to find this one, try to find that one and some of my friends did too.

Speaker 2:

And next thing, I know I'm like cataloging them in my head and that's turning into a spreadsheet. And then I saw the AF Beer Club map and some other stuff like that and I was like you know what if I just built a way for people to find beer when they were out and I did, but two people beat me to that were out and, uh, I did, but two people beat me to that. So then I was like, well, I love craft beer, so what if I built a way for people to find all the little local breweries and big breweries who make their own and all of the tap rooms of their own that they serve it at? So that's that's how it started.

Speaker 2:

It started I had that too. So it came in a spreadsheet you know 400 plus locations and into a map. And on the way, I picked up a lot of other information. I mean, I'm a nerd. Everybody I told from my high school class and college class is like, yeah, I built a spreadsheet. They're like yeah, of course you did, so that's how we got here.

Speaker 1:

Man, that's. I mean you take like the AF beer club map, which is the UK map, and you think, okay's, that's a like having taken that over, that's a lot of work. But then you put that to a country the size of yours, that's mad. Like how many. I can't even begin to think of how many tap rooms are in the states.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, it's like 300. So I don't, I don't do like so. Say, mash gang is on draft and 15 different tap rooms. I'm not going to map those because they have their own beer finder or they don't specifically, but they will, right. But what I do is I MASH Gang is mapped at Pilot Project Brewing in Chicago and Milwaukee because you can go to both those tap rooms and you can get MASH Gang at place to brew, place to brew. So it's fewer locations than AF Beer Club. If AF Beer Club were fully expanded to the US, if AF Beer Club were fully expanded to the US, it would probably have fewer locations, because non-alcoholic, alcohol-free beer on draft here is still taboo and we need to talk about this later.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's, we'll definitely get on to that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but that's the key difference. It's like it's not the distribution more as the home, because here we have a culture going to the brewery to drink Right. So it's like Prost Brewing, for example, just launched an NA in Colorado. Now I can go to any of their four tap rooms and get their NA Pilsner in a can, not on draft, but at least at the place of origin. What's?

Speaker 1:

the perception like over there on alcohol free origin. What's the perception like over there on alcohol free? You hear stigmas right about, like british drink culture and you know it's always britons can't handle their drink, that kind of. That's the stigma that we kind of grow up with or that we did when I was younger because we like to drink quite a lot of beer. But then in britain a few years ago certainly, alcohol free beer was kind of mocked because, oh, what's the few years ago certainly alcohol-free beer was kind of mocked because, oh, what's the point, why would you drink that? And things are kind of changing now, mainly due to guinness, I think. I think guinness having a really good alcohol-free beer, it's kind of like that's the beer that your dad would drink, you know. I mean. So it's like, oh yeah, well, if guinness are doing it, then it's all right, because I, I like Guinness and I trust Guinness, so yeah, it must be fine. So perception is starting to change over here. Have you noticed any negativity your end, or is that kind of non-existent?

Speaker 2:

Oh no, there's plenty of negativity here. It's good. I would say more, but definitely it's quite interesting. I mean, I saw Snow and I'll Probably Be Referred to this woke beer the other week and I'm like but um, the king of the anti-woke doesn't drink. Guys, come on, trump doesn't drink. You know, like musk says he doesn't drink, I'll have my doubts about that one, you know. So that things don't drink and they're like, oh, it's woke beer, but the thing is that it's like it is, but it's changing. So I'm starting to see some evolution where the comments are like non-alcoholic beer, alcohol-free is, we don't like it. But now you're starting to see the same thing.

Speaker 2:

As you say Guinness, guinness is also a driver here. I think Guinness is Heineken, heineken's terrible, but Heineken also itself is terrible. So they're both terrible. Like if you're drinking an alcoholic Heineken, you're drinking a non-alcoholic Heineken. I added, not like this, but the taste of sand. So good, mimic, but same with blood zero. Also coors, edge, blue moon and athletic and these other. Like athletic is really changing the space now that it has athletes. It's going to college sports. It's going to college women's basketball, which I think is awesome. You know, in college football, players like top quarterbacks in the bowl games are all sponsored by Athletic. So something is changing. So that's the part of America. That's a big drinking culture. The people are going to be watching those games and now they're starting to see Athletic. And now Athletic's in tall boys, 19.2 ounce. So over a pint.

Speaker 1:

I did see that the other day Someone with a tall Athletic can and I was like what this is like? Like look, who's catching up? Yep, it's good. And I think I might be wrong here. No, it's asahi zero, I think. And that sponsor arsenal. But I'm sure athletic were involved in arsenal or one of the football teams over here. It could be fulham. Was it fulham? Because they're owned by america. I don't know I'm chatting nonsense now, but I have seen athletic and sports links and I think it's a good thing because not only like for sponsorship, but also people in sports stadiums, how are you getting home if you're drinking, you know, and if, if you're only offering subpar drinks, you're just putting that that little bit of doubt in there, or it's like, oh, you could just have a couple of beers, like it might be fine, but it might not, whereas it was a good alcohol-free option. It's like, okay, well, choices make for you, isn't?

Speaker 2:

it exactly. I think. Athletic, you're right, on the football team, I just don't remember. Or, as we say in america, but I've been abroad so long, I say football now for you guys. Uh, soccer, soccer team. For the american listeners over here, they do sponsor one. I just I don't remember it was, it's a recent thing and I was really amazing also for me. I'm a runner, mountain biker, and they're at a whole bunch of races and best days following their footsteps too, too. So, like Athletic Sponsor's Lifetime Fitness, which is this big ultra running and mountain bike series and you get them at the finish and it's a genius marketing move and everybody loves it. Some people heard about it, but even in that type of crowd, not everybody's heard about it.

Speaker 1:

So they're doing a lot of the right things and I will almost always appreciate them, I think um yeah, I think it's, there's these, there's these brands within the scene that kind of establish themselves fairly early on and start to make waves and lay the foundations, like for us it was lucky saint. Lucky saying it's just a really good lager, like, if you want, if you're recommending a beer to someone, lucky saint is always the one because you know that they're not going to be disappointed. You know that they can get it pretty much anywhere and it's, it's a pretty, it's got, it's on, it's got a map on the website so you can find it on tap, which is huge, and you know it's going to be a good pint as well. So I think these, these beers are really important beers and then they allow the other beers to kind of trickle through or for you to open the door on exploring other beers and going oh well, I like Lucky Saint, maybe I'll try this IPA.

Speaker 1:

Lucky Saint's IPA isn't brilliant, actually, whilst we're on it, but the lager lager's very good. And then I don't know if it's been similar to. I mean you said you've been away, but January over here this year it's just been ridiculous. I've not seen a. I mean this is only my third dry January, so I can't really comment too much, but in my three years I've not seen anything like this yeah, same, actually selling my third year drive to january this year's.

Speaker 2:

I've been back for a little over half a month and, yeah, it's, uh, it's impressive. And you like, I went to a brewery, uh, yesterday, and they don't have their own, but they have three athletics, draft kombucha, six root beers, two hop larks and four liquid deaths. Wow, yeah, and I was like wow, and it sounds like they're gonna keep offering a lot of them, which I wish they brew their own. They have the scale that they could make their own probably. But again, that's a discussion. I think dry January is really really starting to change and that's starting to change people. People are like, all right, dry January, why wouldn't you drink? Or why would you drink non-alcoholic beer, just drink water. And then all of a sudden, they get their hands on an athletic or maybe a go brewing, you know, or a best day rationale or groovy, any of these other four or five brands that are going, and then they're like, oh, oh, now I see the point. Yes, this absolutely tastes good. Yeah, like, I can do this.

Speaker 2:

I did an event the other day where I had a tasting uh, um at a co-working space and I invited some people from outside, about 30 members and we had Groovy Go. I didn't do athletic because everybody had heard about athletic, so Groovy Go. Mash Gang, because I ran into their team in the liquor store on the way and they're like okay, here you go. So Mash Gang. And then a really local tiny guy called Three Kings Best Day, a local tiny mocktail cocktail company as well Wise Tales, and it was a hit. Like everybody loved Groovy Sondria. Everybody loved Go Deep, everybody loved Best Days, kohl's. Everybody had affinities for one of the Three Kings beers. Everybody loved the Wise Tales.

Speaker 2:

And there were probably four or five people who were like we don't drink, we can't drink, we can never participate in these fun events. And now you're having this. I am so happy. And then there are these other people who are like this stuff gets me through dry January, which I'd never done before, and I've done a dry January without a lot of non-alcoholic beer. I was in Nepal 2023 and I didn't have much. We homebrewed our first batch of our first own, but it was only showed up on like I think it's january 20. So I was drinking soda water and dying, you know, for like three weeks and without getting a keg of my own beer, like 50 bottles of beer. Whatever comes out when you brew, I'm like those things are gone in like a week. It's like thank god, I have an end.

Speaker 1:

A beer no this is the thing I've had, this conversation with so many people, that kind of say, oh I don't like alcohol-free beer, but I like beer and it's so well, you can't have both. You can't like beer and not like alcohol-free beer. You can like beer and not like Bud Zero sure you know, because I don't really like Bud Zero but I like alcohol-free beer. But if it tastes like a good beer, which a lot of it does. Now, you don't have an argument based on palate. Your argument is based on. This. Doesn't give me the effect that I want to get when I drink a beer, which in that case you may as well just drink whiskey, which is also delicious, don't get me wrong. But you know it's um, like you can't have. You can't have it both ways anymore, which I love.

Speaker 1:

And I love that so many breweries that were against it initially are now releasing beer that's alcohol free. You said it's interesting to hear. Actually, you said you think that the uk scene might be like a little bit ahead of of America. What we're seeing at the moment is breweries starting to explore alcohol-free on tap and we're seeing a lot of breweries release their signature alcoholic beer in alcohol-free form. That's kind of where we're at, we're at. So is like you talked about tap. Is that just? Is it a no-go? Is it? Is it an ongoing thing? Is it like, is it a regulation thing? I don't know how. America works.

Speaker 2:

So it's definitely a regulation thing because, yeah, we're not there yet, but I don't know if you. You know, the brewers association in cornell university released a paper like a year ago, basically saying that if you drop some e-coli or salmonella in a beer an alcohol-free beer and leave it at room temperature you're going to die. Essentially, the exponential growth curve, um is there, um, but in refrigerated temperatures it decreases by two logarithmic, actually over 60 days, which, by the way, is about what alcohol, like beer, decreases over 30 days, according to a different paper. But that scared everybody. There was a good draft scene in minnesota because there's a small scale. Uh hub spoke de-alcoholizing model run by a company called abv technology.

Speaker 2:

But outside of that, like self-care the beer I'm drinking right now three magnets. They maybe had one in their tap room at most. Who's been ahead of the game out of sawtooth Brewery? They probably had a couple in their Taproom. Woodland Farms had a couple in their Taproom, but it was like outside of hit or miss and definitely in the three-tier distribution system. There was no draft, none at all.

Speaker 2:

Now Athletic, about a year and a half ago, started doing Run Wild and Keg on draft, the blue cane and they're probably in about a couple hundred places across the US. Now 20, 30 in Colorado. Go Brewing, I know, distributes some of their stuff on draft to nearby places around their brewery. They're not going to drop into the three-tier system yet. I think that's more of a strategy for them, though a focus strategy, but the safety thing's an issue. I think there are longer draft lines that expose themselves to warmer temperatures maybe, or just less experience. I mean, there's so much draft na in europe. It's like it can be definitely be done. It's just you have to take care and it will change. Like mash gang is already on draft colorado. I was supposed to go and find them on saturday but it snowed me out, so I'm going tomorrow.

Speaker 1:

Nice. I'm glad that they're doing bits over there because they're just game changers. I'm glad that they're starting to do things in the States and they're doing things in the UK and it's just like I'm very happy for those guys because we're a good bunch of guys and we make some really good liquid. But I think it's just education, right, like in terms of alcohol free on tap and like the safety of it and all of that. Like you look at germany, they've been doing it for years and it's just, it's so normal in german beer culture to have an alcohol free beer and an alcohol beer like next to each other on tap in the uk. It's, I think it's hospitality venues, knowing how to take care of their lines and things like that.

Speaker 1:

The first mash gang I had on tap was terrible, like awful, and I was gutted because I've been looking forward to it for for years and it was just flat and horrible. And I don't think that is because of the liquid the mashgang sent to them for a second, because I think they'd have told me not to buy it beforehand if, if I don't know max, they're very honest about things when things went wrong. But I think it is just education and the lack of education in terms of alcohol-free beer is still it's. You know, not many people really know that much about it and I think that that will improve over time, or I hope it does yeah, I agree, I think it will be.

Speaker 2:

It's more about figuring it out. I think breweries being able to serve it on their own premise on draft is just as safe. They just have to make sure to keep those. I mean, breweries are pretty anal about their you know quality like, about their safety stuff. They have to be you know like, because E coli and salmonella forget about those type of things Beer spoilage bacteria is going to jump right into your keg, or wild yeast and things like that first.

Speaker 2:

So Once you keep it cold and your draft line's clean, I think it's fine on premise. But yeah, the three-tier distribution system with dirty draft lines. I think their worry is that, like I don't know, somebody goes to the bathroom and doesn't clean their hand or something. It touches the tap and then oops backwards through the line into the keg. But again it's only that room temperature beer, that little bit of keg line which you're going to flush out. That beer is not going to go back into the cold keg and start growing again. We know that much, right. So it's one tiny bit of E coli and that same issue with alcoholic beer, if somebody did the same thing and that were enough to get somebody sick on the tap, it would all still get somebody sick with alcohol, beer Like. The literature says the same thing, and I don't. So it's definitely. You say it's an education thing. It's a. It's a developing a proper standard operating procedure thing. But Europe's doing it for so long and you know it will be of it though like with with sell by dates.

Speaker 1:

I'm guilty of it, I'll, I'll, I'll look at a sell by date and if, oh, I don't trust it. Whereas with full elk beer, if I got one that was a bit out of date, it was like sweet. This is going to be stronger. Yes, we're sold.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, bizarre. No so to me with a sell-by date. I just drank a two-year-old Alesmith actually yesterday and it was fine Because I figure I hope I assume Alesmith their size is pasteurizing right An Athletic. I drank a three-year-old one. I went and drank a couple three-year-old ones. I mean, I've heard the founder drink a three-year-old one on his podcast. Some of them were hit or miss. They're like ah, they lost most of their flavor, but some of them still held their flavor. I still have some Two Roots Two Roots is one of the OGs and no longer. But I still found some cans in the back of my brother's fridge and I'm like I'm drinking those. I will drink those because they were pasteurized again, you know, and like what? Like I mean the beer might spoil, it's going to taste like crap. Then I pour it out, you know. But if it's not pasteurized, then I'm like you.

Speaker 1:

Same thing, three months, no-transcript speaking of really old beers, I've got a Kitty Pig beer that I think is like three years out of date. I'm just not ready to throw away. Yet I haven't drank it. Kitty Pig from the US yeah, george, from Mushgangson, it may, um, I think it's three, I think it should be.

Speaker 2:

They're under two years old, but they passed us. They don't say, pat, don't worry about, I've read it.

Speaker 1:

I've read a date on it that's like what it might. It might be two years. I think it's a 2023 date on it yeah, it's so.

Speaker 2:

that's two years then. So, yeah, you're still. You still yeah, because two years ago they were doing in canada and this last year they moved their production to the US, so you probably have the original plastic label can? Yes, I've got one of those too at my brother's house. I'm debating should I save it for posterity or should I open it. But I know Katie Big Bath drives us. They're good people, okay.

Speaker 1:

Okay, because I really want to drink it, because I really like what they do. Whenever I get a us beer, it's exciting, um, because I don't know. I don't know what it is about, like american craft beer, but it just feels like a real treat. Well, I know what it is. It's because we don't have it over here. Of course, that's like just basic human living, isn't it? Grass is always greener, but it feels like there's some really cool things going on and not just with beer as well, like when you were discussing earlier, like kombuchas and liquid death being and root beers and things being on offer. That's something that we don't really have here. We have like coke or beer. In terms of the alcohol free scene, like there are mocktail companies etc. And wine is improving, but I think that's a different demographic to your people that are gonna want to smash a few cans of beer. I mean, you've got a concoction that you're drinking at the moment that I'm very intrigued by yeah, I mean I've got self-care, is what?

Speaker 2:

gnarly wine, gnarly time barley wine I mean this thing is self-care is like the Match Gang in the US. They're small, it's a three-manget brewing company. I forget the number. He was on a podcast, a Goods and Grains podcast, a month ago, less than a month ago. He away the number, but it's somewhere similar to what jordan and mash can have done. And they, they're like, they have their wet hop series, their fresh hop series, which, by the way, athletic has a wet hop and fresh hop series, by the way. So you take that athletics, not innovative.

Speaker 1:

They do those things, but this is just becoming an athletic lover love fest, and I'm here for it I mean go brewing also, like I, I like they.

Speaker 2:

They had a banana made banana pancake stout last month, like so I mean incredible, they did a hot butcher thing which I heard amazing things and I gotta get, I gotta get an order, order them. I just have been a little, a little slow on restocking them. But, um, yeah, I mean this self-care stuff, like it's good. I was a bit worried. I mean he openly doesn't pasteurize right now, but I think he's gonna scale and start pasteurizing. But he's very smart about it. He sends it to you on Monday so it gets there. It doesn't stay in a warehouse, it gets there on Wednesday if you order it. Most of their stuff is done locally. They do self-distribution, so they go to their place and they put it in. Now they're expanding and I think they're going to pasteurize that core range, range.

Speaker 2:

But I mean we're talking, I'm drinking a barley wine and there are very few people who you could give this beer to and they'll be like that tastes like beer. I mean, I mean that they won't say it tastes like beer. I mean back to your point. It would take a variety but it is very it would. It would be very hard for me to not be able to convince nine out of ten people who would say that that there is a good alcohol-free, non-alcoholic beer. Right, it comes back back to that. So that's the. That's like a self-care, like I only just started drinking their stuff and I really like it too. I'm impressed. Unfortunately, I can't send it to you. I'll pasteurize. They wouldn't let me. Um, speaking of non-beer beverages, have you tried hoplark? Have they gotten over there yet? They just got an investment.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, we've got some Hopwater and again it was when it first happened. Hopwater that sounds like such a traumatic event, but when they first started being released it was like what's this? What it's like? Beer, milk almost. It was such a weird concept. And when I first drank it it was like I don't know, because it's in a can and I'm pouring it up like a beer and then it's kind of is it a beer? No, not at all, actually, it's just water. But then you're left with a little bit. You feel like you've been satisfied, in a way that beer satisfies you. It a really confusing time and that was only really last summer and our summer was not very hot, like we had maybe a week of real heat but we didn't have a proper lovely summer. I think it's gonna be a real hit in great weather. Like I started getting more into it the more I drank it, but at first it just confused me. I think we're a very stubborn bunch of people, like anything that's slightly new or different is like oh no, I don't like that.

Speaker 2:

Without even trying it. Yeah, no, I think that's the interesting thing, I think, with the hop water, the problem I have here is when a brewery goes, I can't make an NA beer, makes hop water and like, oh, we have options for NA people. It's fine now, but I hope in the future it's kind of like a stepping stone. Hop water is good.

Speaker 2:

There are a couple brands that I think are incredible Hop water or the brand hop water, which I think they're pretty good but there's a brand called Hop Lark and they actually mix teas into theirs, into some of theirs. They have a 0.0 line with zero wine, with teas and hops, and recently they added orange juice and pineapple juice into one but just a little bit of it and made a hazy style and it was incredible. It was like it wasn't a hazy IPA, but it was this hazy, tasty, 13 calorie liquid that made you kind of feel like you're drinking an IPA. It's super refreshing that apple pie was so people can be creative in that way too.

Speaker 2:

I think that's one place where we possibly have an edge on you guys is the hot water, adjacent conjunctions and, as long as they're not a brewery's effort to not brew it on alcoholic beer, um, and then like put it on tap and then be like, oh, that didn't sell either, so we're definitely not going to do it. I appreciate water, pop water and adjuncts for their own, and there are some really like hop, hop, lark. I can't even keep up with them anymore.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think it's right, it's options, isn't it? I think that's all that, all that you want really like, as somebody that doesn't drink myself, I, I just want options. I don't want to have to have an orange juice or have a Coca-Cola, because for me it's just. Why would I? I wouldn't pick up an orange juice at home, I mean maybe first thing in the morning, but of an evening I don't want to drink an orange juice. Why do I want to drink this at a taproom or when I'm out at a pub? I don't. If you can't give me a beer, at least give me something that feels like a grown-up beverage, that doesn't make me feel like I stick out in a room. And the experimentation is great.

Speaker 1:

And I think breweries over here, they're struggling, hospitality is struggling. So we need to innovate and we need to experiment with things to not to reinvent the drinking culture, because I think the drinking culture is, is, can be, a wonderful thing. Like I love alcohol, I think it's great. I just think that there are other ways for people to enjoy these venues that maybe aren't consuming alcohol and I think, with more experimentation and and with more risks, almost that that could really unlock the future of hospitality I, I agree, I think from uh, you have you two points where you hit that I I'm like more and more on is uh, especially in the, the struggling right now?

Speaker 2:

because I think if you look at the breweries, the smaller breweries here who really, really like all the na big ones, are growing Like Athletic Best Day. They're all exploding, go. I mean they sold more in one day this January. They did in all January last year Was that last year? I can't remember Like it's massive Groovy also. They're all doing well.

Speaker 2:

But the thing is, when you see a little brewery invest in their NA, invest in their NAA, invest in their community, what happens is they actually can bring in new communities and you have new offerings, new adult beverages that aren't adult in the sense that they will get you intoxicated. They're adult in the sense that you feel like you're an adult. In the room. I mean, you said I was in the Paltz for the last two and a half months and I've stopped drinking. Now I'm 18, 17 months, 18 months now almost without a drink and I was making my own hop, tea, water conjunctions. I was like, oh, oplark did this, I'm going to try to do it. But the thing is I had my friend's wedding, I had this. I had that as long as I had something in my hand that wasn't coke. But the thing is I was also lamenting with sober people who never had drunk before or maybe had one drink in their life, and we were. We were at some event, work event, and it was. You had 10 different, you know beer, whiskey, wine, this, that, and then it was like oak, fanta, sprite, not even soda water. It's like so I'm gonna either either can be a drinker, which we're not anymore, and some people never have been, and there are a lot of cultures where there's a certain percentage of the society that doesn't drink at all. Yeah, of course, we send them to the most unhealthy beverage. We've created soda, commercial soda, and it's like let's have something in between and that's where a hot water can fill or a non-alcoholic beer can fill, or a properly made, thought out, non-alcoholic alcohol-free cocktail, you know, and that's going to open up a whole new beverage group. But it's also, you know, what we call zebra striping, where you have your alcohol-free beer right, that's going to increase safety.

Speaker 2:

I mean, one brewery here was like I was talking about his NA and he was like, yeah, one guy was totally wasted at a New Year's party and I was really worried. I was going to get home and he was drinking our alcoholic version of this, so I just swapped the can out. Four hours later, he just kept going through the non-alcoholic cans and came up and asked me did you switch my drink for a non-alcoholic? And the guy, the bartender, was expecting to get yelled at. Instead what he got was a thank you, wow.

Speaker 2:

And I think those type of anecdotes, they illustrate the potential for you know, society to become safer too. I mean, the whole reason alcohol-free beer exists to such a culture in Germany is because of their drunk driving laws. Right, that's a big, big driver, yeah, yeah, from a safety perspective too encouraging, just drinking. From a safety perspective too encouraging, just drinking. But it's like you go to a brewery and you go there for their beer and then you're going to switch to a commercial NA. It's tough, right, but maybe a local, regional NA you'll switch to, or your own you'll switch to, or you'll bring your friends in who don't drink, and that's where I think we're going to start seeing that evolution.

Speaker 2:

Oh hey, here's. You know, I'm a brewery, I can't make my own, but here's six different beverages for you. You can have fun with your friends. Come with your friends, come, enjoy what we have. And, yeah, it's going to be a shift in the hospitality. People shouldn't be afraid of dry January, as much Breweries shouldn't be. As more as can we develop a new way to bring in a better audience with beverages designed for these months that may increase the tabs of our regular drinkers too, because they'll add an alcohol-free beverage to their. You know, and I haven't seen. All okay, there's a. There's a legal, legal distinction here in the us and on alcoholic is US. Non-alcoholic is 0.5 and below. Alcohol-free is 0.05 and below.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, we have that as well. Low alcohol is up to 0.5. Alcohol-free is below 0.5, which is just. I mean it's bullshit. That's my you know everyone's banana, then the orange juice and the percentages in abv you're you're not 0.5, like we don't have a lot of alcohol.

Speaker 2:

Yet you're you're alcohol free is are not alcoholic and our alcohol free is something you guys probably don't even have. It's like literally 0.0. Sorry, you have some heineken. Heineken is a 0.0. We've got a few 0.0. Sorry, you have some Heineken. Heineken is a 0.0.

Speaker 1:

We've got a few 0.0s. Heineken is a 0.0. The best 0.0 is Friedam over here, I think, which is like it's quite a pleasant lager, and there's a few 0.0s. 0.3 seems to be quite popular over here. Get a fair amount of 0.3s. I don't even look at it anymore. I mean I do, but not in terms of oh, it's a 0.0.

Speaker 1:

Entails, which again we go back to education the amount of people even like beer people, because I'm lucky enough to, to be friends with a lot of people in the in the full out craft beer scene, which again shows the progression of alcohol-free beers in the world, because five years ago these people would probably thought I was a loser, but a lot of these guys don't even know about the, the 0.5 orange juice kind of comparison, and it's like, oh, really, so yeah, yeah, you can't, you can't, get drunk on it. Like who was it? It was, it was someone in the states, a bottle shop. He um, rob a generation in it. Yeah, with with the bread Bread and the orange juice. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was just, that was perfection, like that summed it up. He did something that I'd been wanting to do for a long time and just, you know these things where you're like, oh, I'm going to do that one day, it'll be funny, and then just never get around to doing it. He actually went there and it was perfection.

Speaker 2:

And it was perfection. Followers. He'll be buying and selling your beer in exchange for influence for you. You know, because he and he's great, like I love him.

Speaker 2:

I love a lot of the bottle shops over here and I hope that industry makes it through because it's like some of them like open road. They collaborate with local brewery on uh monmouth, have their own collab beers. Right now it's like I want to buy a plane ticket to pittsburgh just to go visit them. You know, like yeah it, yeah, it's, it's, it's a lot of fun. I mean 0.0 though Like it's a. It is a taste thing, though Like it's a. We have a couple here like craft size, right, we have atmosphere and they do their all removal production in Germany, their whole beer production. And then we have Siri out of Colorado and they have their own way of making alcohol-free beer with that. It's good, but it tastes slightly different and you have to tell people that. Then people like it. But it is an education thing. I mean, I honestly think you can drink 10, 1% beers and nothing happened, right?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I probably do fall into that category. Like I have to really check myself on it, because I've been having this thing lately where I'm like what's the point of a table beer now? And I'm genuinely it's. It's only entered my brain in the last few weeks but now everybody that I talk to I end up saying do you think there's any point in table beers anymore? Because for me, you're drinking a table beer because you are being you are aware of your alcohol intake and you are trying to manage that. That's what you're drinking a table beer now. If you're doing that four years ago, yeah, go for a table beer. That's a good, that's a good thing to do, whereas now there are so many very, very, very, very good alcohol-free beers that you can drink but still taste good and you don't have to worry at all about your alcohol intake. Where do table beers fit into? Are they like? Is a table beer going to become like a gateway beer into alcohol free for people?

Speaker 2:

I, I I wonder it could or could be a happy in between. I think there are a couple what is it? Dad strength brewinging and Andiamo and a few others who started specializing in like the 3% beers. Here I lean into like the 1%, primarily because I've experimented with, you know, making NA beers and sometimes you miss and you get a 0.7%. It's like, well, am I actually not sober if I'm drinking that? And I think there's a fine line and there's a certain number of people possibly might trigger them, but so might a 0.5. I think for me I'm the type of person that's okay and I wish there was maybe a 0.5 to 1.5 category, maybe just to allow these breweries about to make an NA beer make a mistake and still have a market for it. That is a stigma.

Speaker 1:

Sure, Because it's not just the sober people, is it? That's the thing that I think is really important. The vast majority of these people that drink alcohol-free or very, very low ABV beer, they're not alcoholics. There are those that are like high We'll zebra stripe and occasionally have an alcohol-free beer, but they're not. I mean, some of them might be borderline, but they're not. You know, they're not alcoholics. There's a lot of people that drink this stuff that don't have a drink problem. So I think again, it's options, it's accessibility, it's making the most possible amount of choices available to people. So, yeah, it's just an interest. The real low abv beers, uh, I find it hard to place where they fit into my into my future utopian world I think it's a.

Speaker 2:

It's a. I mean, maybe they wouldn't exist, but I think it's like a. You know, hey, here's a small brewery they want to kind of hit. You know, I think there are a lot of people. There are people you know, I probably, if I, if somebody gave me a 0.9% beer in the middle of a dry January, I'd still consider myself dry, right.

Speaker 2:

I think there's that category of people with the proper communications and it's your proper ability to like, hey, test. I know there was one, a brewer, who released a 0.9 and they got ripped on social media because they first went out and called it non-alcoholic and that was dumb on their part. But then if they tweak the messaging, it has an audience because a lot of the same people yelling at them would probably go drink it and I would like to see that. And yeah, it's semantics, it's terms, but, as you say, there needs to be kind of an off-ramp. If you've got somebody drinking and you've got hey, I've got this 1.5 percent beer, one percent beer, drink that instead and don't drive home, you know, because you could drink five of those things and you know, not have nothing to do, right. But I mean, it is, it's a thought for the future, I think, is where's the really low alcohol, but still gone. Not non-alcoholic space. Is there space for that?

Speaker 1:

yeah, it'll be interesting to see where that, where that kind of heads, because I I think alcohol's always going to exist and I think alcohol should always exist. There's a place for those 11% imperial stouts, because they are delicious and if you're lucky enough to be able to enjoy one every now and again, then all power to you, go and do that. And again, then all power to you, go and do that, like I'd never want to see alcohol vanish from society, um, but I'd just like to see more options. But so it's. It's interesting that we've been talking about beer pretty solidly now for for an extended period of time, and it's only really the last sort of five minutes that we've gone. You know, oh hi, I'm an alcoholic. You can have full conversations with people about beer without them even knowing that you're talking about the fake stuff, as as some would call it. You know.

Speaker 2:

I think that speaks volumes the way the industry is at yeah, and I really I mean, like I like your song, it's the same thing, it just doesn't have alcohol in it and I think I don't know if you have this over there, but I've seen it more, especially German on the wine side. But everybody's like, no, it's a new ball and you know a prohibitionist movement, neo, being disgusted with drinking. It's like it's been in our culture long before commercialization existed. So there is the commercialization aspect, but there's the aspect of you go into any village anywhere in the world and they have some form of alcoholic beverage, right, and, as you say, I think the non-alcoholic free movement is about options and that's what it needs to be about. It's not about prohibition. I don't want to see people that like, like drinking to not have a, be able to have a glass of wine. My mom's had a glass of wine every day since, probably after my brother was born, right, and she's the most active person I know at age 65 is perfectly, you know, go a bottle and a half. It's a glass or two a day max, right, you know a lot of people like that.

Speaker 2:

There are a lot of people who enjoy those 11% beers and sure, there are some people who drink too much, and that's where the options need to come in. If you have more options, perhaps you can stave off that potential alcoholism. Maybe it's about that excessive, they like to have beverage and they like to drink a lot of it. So for me it was like how did you just drink five and eight beers? Why would you do that? I'm like because I like beer and I like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Oh my God, there are five options here. I'm going to do my own taste off tonight. Options, good options, introduced at the right time. I personally think and I think there are other people out there that could possibly be a way to combat alcoholism before alcoholism hits some people.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's sort of like. It sums it up perfectly Like I can relate to that so hard as well how, if you drank two pints before I finished mine, it's like, yep, because they've got them. They've got them, so I'm going, I'm gonna drink them. Like you find a venue with like five or six different options, like I'm having every single one of them before we move to the next venue, because seeing them in the wild still feels like a treat same same.

Speaker 2:

And it's like you know, I know, maybe, like I kind of I miss my brewery days because it's like, oh, I love having a flight, a four ounce flight of four years. You know I wouldn't stop right, it'd be like four ounce flight. Oh, my god, about 11 is good, here's another 11, here's 11, another 11. And I wouldn't get, wouldn't the blackout drunk thing, all that stuff didn't happen very often and all that stuff, but still I was drinking too much, right, and it was starting to turn my health.

Speaker 2:

I could. I could tell, and, um the thing, when a brewery had an NA option of their own, I would have more likely turned off that off switch. I mean, like cool, I'm going to go try your four new beers, a four ounce glass of each, and then I'm going to have your NA. You know that option isn't available right now, so I'm not drinking at all, right. But I do know, like you said, I'm in Nepal. I've homebrewed my own na beers with my friends. They've homebrewed 11 stout. I'm gonna have three ounces of it and then my na, because I know I tasted their stout. Damn, it was good, my na, which could use a little work, to be honest. But I won't drink it.

Speaker 1:

I'm gonna enjoy it yeah, it's there and it's kind of beer. That's all. That's all we can ask for, isn't it? The rest is a bonus. Where do you um, where do you see the future of um nab going? What do you think that the next steps are? Or like, what would you like to see? Or what would you, what do you think you're going to see?

Speaker 2:

I'm going to avoid percentages of sales because I don't know. I think I'm going to talk about percentage of, uh, accessibility. So I think you're going to start, I hope, hope. This is my vision, right? So say, you have your Colorado, your Colorado town of 100,000 people or whatever. So you have obviously one brewery for 1,000 people, because that's how we are right. So you have 100 breweries, right?

Speaker 2:

I'm going to say that 20 of them are offering an athletic, a go, a best day, a national brand. 30 to 40 of them are offering a regionally or locally produced NA and the remainder the other 40, are making one of their own. And I don't just mean a hot water, I mean a hot water and a beer and they're leaning into it. And you're going to start seeing smaller tap rooms who specialize in craft breweries with, like, say, 10 taps, three to four of them will be NA. That's where I hope the sector goes, really, because it's just about options. And sure, maybe those seven alcoholic taps will rotate through twice before the three non-alcoholic taps will, but by having them you're bringing more people in, you're upping the taps, you're giving more options. So those guys buying seven are also buying one na, you know, and they're bringing their friends who are going to buy the NA's. So it's a. That's where I see it going is a much more inclusive space. I mean, what about you actually?

Speaker 1:

I want to add what's your, I think, even if it's a brand like Heineken, I think every pub in the UK, or at least the majority of them you've got to get a rotating line on tap and I think that's going to be the real kind of revolution in alcohol-free beer in the UK is having an accessible one that everyone knows that is good on tap in pubs. I think this dry January if it's shown me anything, it's that breweries certainly have the capability to release alcohol-free beers in volume, because pretty much every brewery I know have released one, and I'm talking even like traditional English ales now are coming out alcohol-free and I haven't been able to get that before. That's a very kind of you know the alcohol-free beers that haven't been able to get that before. That's a very kind of you know the alcohol-free beers that are really malt heavy and really sweet and synthetic and horrible. That's kind of how they tasted, whereas now it's like this is good. I think we're going to see more of those traditional beers coming out in in alcohol-free form and I'm just hoping that more people start to embrace it, and I think that the zebra striping is going to be a real goer.

Speaker 1:

I'd like to see more advertising in terms of that. So instead of just advertising alcohol-free, I'd like to see it advertised alongside alcohol. I think that's the future of it, because I think by blue-labeling alcohol-free stuff and being like here's alcohol-free stuff and being like here's alcohol-free stuff, avoid all of this negativity Alcohol-free it's so good, it's so clean, it's so like. I think that actually damages it. I think you should say here's a banging, let's say cocktail. Oh, here's a fancy cocktail, it's going to get you all merry and nice, but then there's an alcohol-free one as well, if you want that. I think the two together actually is more impactful than having them separate, because the amount of people who will see an alcohol-free advert and go, whereas if you see it together you might go oh, I didn't know they did that, yep, yeah, that's where I'd like to see things heading Same.

Speaker 2:

I love a 50-50 tap room and I love it when, as you said uh, that's in the uk too, it's starting to happen. Here, a brewery releases the na version of their alcoholic beer and now it's all about leaning into it. Hey, have one, have the other. And yeah, let's not stigmatize it, let's normalize it, let's, you know, let's, let's give people options. We need the options, we love the options, so you know you benefit from it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's the thing, and I mean, if we like it, then the chances are other people are, because I really used to enjoy a lot of beer. Like to my detriment, the amount of beer that I drank in my life was enough to nearly unalive me. So you know, if, if I can drink this stuff and find it palatable, then most people are going to be fine yeah, yeah, I mean saying by the guy.

Speaker 2:

People are like, tyler, I just stopped drinking beer. I'm like I just substituted non-alcoholic for it and they're like, wow you. I'm like, yeah me, I love beer, this is good, and pretty much everybody. I've legit handed a can or two of non-alcoholic beer almost everybody and they're like, wow, this is, they've slightly reduced their alcohol consumption because it might have been borderline. So instead of 20, 25 drinks a week, it's now 10. But then there's 10 non-alcoholic beers. So if you're the brewery that was making the alcoholic beer and you had a non-alcoholic beer, guess what? You wouldn't lose the business.

Speaker 1:

Yep, yep, and I think you wouldn't lose the business. Yep, yep, and it's exactly that, exactly that. Well, thank you very much for coming to chat. It's been really interesting, actually and, I think, really enlightening, to again be able to have just a conversation about beer without mentioning alcoholism. I mean, there might have been a couple of loose mentions of it, but the majority it was just like oh, this is a beer that exists in the states and this is what these guys do. And then it'd be oh, this is what beer exists in the uk and it's. You know, beer is a universal language and I think when you apply that logic to alcohol-free beer, I think the camaraderie only gets tighter, because it's so neat and there's so much love within that scene that we all just want to see it do well and we want to see it grow. So it's been a really lovely chat.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it has. Thank you for having me. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it and I appreciate your British beers coming this way and starting to punch into the market too. I hope to see more of them.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the Sober Boozers Club podcast. My name is Ben Gibbs. You can find me on all the socials at Sober Boozers Club. If you're interested in the world of American alcohol-free beer and you want to see what Tyler's up to, head over to his socials at Reducerholic. He's got a fantastic array of beers for you to have a look at. For now, have a good one, have a safe one. I love you.