Sober Boozers Club
The Sober Boozers Club Podcast is brought to you by Ben Gibbs - Alcoholic. Since 2022 Ben has been sourcing and enjoying the best alcohol free beer the world has to offer and has been documenting these beverages during his sobriety journey. Ben has worked alongside craft breweries, bottle shops and sober activists to raise awareness of Grey Area Drinking and to help spread the word on the growing market that is AF/NA beverages, becoming the face of the Alcohol Free Beer Club and featuring on many podcasts, as well as securing a number of features on BBC Radio. In 2024 Ben became the first alcoholic in active recovery to win a British Guild Of Beer Writers award for commentary on beer. This podcast features experts from the Beer world, as well as Alcohol Free breweries and sober activists as we explore the world of Alcohol Free beer and sobriety.
Sober Boozers Club
Behind the Can: Did We Make the Best Alcohol-Free Beer in the Country?
What does it take to create the best alcohol-free beer in the country? Sam Ray of We Can Be Friends brewery joins Ben Gibbs to reveal the passion, craftsmanship, and unexpected journey behind his remarkable beer range that's winning over even the most dedicated craft beer enthusiasts.
"I'd turn around every month and you'd be doing something amazing for the scene," Sam tells Ben, highlighting the mutual respect between these two champions of alcohol-free culture. Their conversation dives deep into Sam's meticulous brewing process, including his insistence on fresh hops, premium ingredients, and gold-standard pasteurization that sets his products apart. The discussion challenges common misconceptions about alcohol-free beer production costs, with Sam revealing that specialized yeasts are "wildly more expensive" than traditional brewer's yeast.
The pair explore notable industry shifts as established breweries like Vault City and Daya (who once claimed they would never release an alcohol-free beer) have collaborated with Sam on remarkable releases. They celebrate how German beer culture normalized alcohol-free options decades ago, with the UK market finally catching up. The conversation takes personal turns too, as they discuss their Sunburst collaboration beer – a project that represents what Ben calls a "pinch me moment" in his sobriety journey and Sam considers his best beer yet.
Whether you're sober-curious, a dedicated non-drinker, or simply interested in the evolution of craft beer culture, this episode offers fascinating insights into how passionate creators are revolutionizing what we drink and how we socialize. Subscribe now and join the community changing perceptions one magnificent alcohol-free beer at a time.
To find out more about the wonderful world of alcohol free beer and to check in with me head to www.instagram.com/sober_boozers_club
This episode is not brought to you by any sponsors because nobody wants to sponsor me.
This is the Sober Boozers Club podcast. This podcast, we're going to talk to people from within these circles and find out a little bit about their journey, so you sit back, relax and enjoy. This year, I released an alcohol-free beer. That sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? But it actually happened, thanks to the man who is my guest on this week's episode. It's Sam Ray, and he is the man behind. We Can Be Friends who are, in my opinion, producing the best alcohol-free beer in the entire country, so naturally, we had to have him on, didn't we? Well, well, well, look who's come crawling back to Season 2. How you doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, good Thanks for having me on again. I feel like I kind of pushed my way on um, thanks for having me on again.
Speaker 1:I feel like I kind of pushed my way on. No, you were like you were. You were on my list anyway. It's just like when you're mates with someone. I kind of just assumed that, like, I will definitely do an episode, so I don't have to ask you know? I mean, yeah, I didn't know it'd be a bit weird.
Speaker 2:I didn't want to be that guy who's like on every season I'm back for season three. Everyone, I'm going to talk about the same stuff again. But I thought it's a good opportunity to talk about the beer that we just made together. If anyone doesn't know, we made a beer together.
Speaker 1:We made a beer together. But also, to be honest, you have had second year in production, or is it technically third? I can't remember when you, when you launched so it was the end.
Speaker 2:It was december 23, okay, but to be honest, I got my first beer in december 23 and I think I probably sold about two cases in december because everyone I'd asked to buy it was like who's this weird weirdo trying to sell us alcohol-free beer? And, um, yes, I pretty much started going.
Speaker 1:January 24 was kind of like where I hit sort of sold maybe four cases instead of two well, let's say second year, then, and I can remember the first episode we did of this, which would have been pretty much 12 months ago really, so very early into your um. We can be friends life. And you said on that episode, like, the two things that you want to do, one, take up the kind of mantle that mash gang had laid out, and two was make beers for rival table beers of companies. And I think where we're sat right now in february 2025, is the recording date like mission success.
Speaker 1:So far, you have not put out a bad beer yet, like, and not only that, you haven't put out a, a beer that is just good like. All of them have been fucking amazing and with the collabs that you've had recently, I think you're you're filling that void that mash gang left with the acquisition pretty damn well. So how? How do you think that the first two years has been going? Are you like where you wanted to be? Is it shocks you or is there more that you want to do yet?
Speaker 2:no, I've been massively surprised. I think the the thing with, like our relationship is you're just really high and from the beginnings, um, a lot of, as I said, like probably sold two, two cases in that first few weeks that I was open. No one really wanted to know, no one really wanted to give it a try. I feel like Alcohol Free was probably in a bit of a different space at that point too. It's kind of come on a lot in the past year too. And yeah, I mean you were just on board with it. You tried the beer, you actually give it a shot and you really liked it. And I remember, um, you did something for bbc radio. I think it was like february last year or it might have even been january, and you said, and I'll run to my girlfriend, I was like, look on the radio, I've made it, I've hit the big time I didn't even even realize that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I can remember, I mean that was a massive deal at the time. It was huge Like just to get mentioned to be in any sort of alcohol-free sphere of anyone doing anything. So yeah, mate, it was like a real big deal.
Speaker 1:Well, it was one of those like I tried the liquid and I mean I've been really open to you and I've said when you first popped up, it was kind of like 40 followers, who are these people Drank it? Thinking like, okay, let's just, let's just humble people, because I'll always try something right. And I've taken that up since, since trying your beer, to be honest, because when you said like oh, can I send you a, can see what you make of it, I didn't have high hopes because I'd never heard of of you before and that was again. That was a long time ago for me. Really.
Speaker 1:I was fairly fresh in in doing it. Like it's only really been the last 12 months. I've really thrown myself more into the beer world. I was just some guy on the internet that just like knew what he liked, but when I drank it it was like fuck me. It was, I mean, still today I think your first beer is my favorite beer. Like it's the one that sits with me the most because it was when, when you don't really expect anything from something and it blows your way.
Speaker 1:It was like shit, shit, and I'm going to speak to christian at sturchley wines and being like tell you what I've had? I've had this fucking beer and it's amazing. And then he turned around said it's funny, you say that I've had an email from them as well. And I was like, yep, get them, you need to get them, yeah I think that was actually one of the first orders.
Speaker 2:So yeah, man, doing sales as well for me, doing promotion, marketing, sales ben, I'll owe you more than a collaboration, I think it's good liquid, man, it's good liquid.
Speaker 1:That's the thing. Like it's, it's just good shit. And obviously I didn't know about yourself, like obviously you've. You've been in brewing for longer than we can be friends.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's been a really good year. I've been lucky enough to work with some amazing breweries, something that I never thought would happen. I think it's just come along at a right point where these breweries have wanted to go on their own journey and, from what I can gather, they've tried a bunch of beers and gone oh, we like this one. This is kind of the route that we want to go. How do we, um, how do we make something like this? And I think that, yeah, I've been lucky enough that they've chose me to kind of do something, so I'm thankful for all the breweries that have made beer with me. It's been, it's been really helpful to how that how we can be friends are doing at the moment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because it's been like what vault city it's been? Daya daya was massive. I forgot all about that one like that. They were the brewery, but we're never going to release an alcohol-free beer. Yes, as far as I was concerned. How does how did that come about? So they released.
Speaker 2:They actually released a beer.
Speaker 2:They actually had a beer in tank. So I think they did a trial batch before. Never they never see the light of day. I think it was purely a trial, like they didn't really really have a clue what they were doing. Like the brewing process is so different to what what breweries do day to day. I mean it's taken quite a lot of experimentation to get where I am. But so if you've got like a big brewery and you need to brew big batches of stuff, I think it's more difficult to just try your stuff and do little things. So I think they made a batch and then they made another batch with Left Handed Giant and Burden, which was actually a really good beer. It was like it was amazing when they did that, and it was actually just before that came out.
Speaker 2:I met Theo the owner. He was actually in London one day. He invited me to go and have a beer with him and we went and had a beer and we just chatted about stuff and he told me about the new beer that they had coming out and they were really excited about it and that they really wanted to try and go for this alcohol-free thing. They'd seen um other breweries who had taken it on like I think I think they're friends with Wiper and True too, who have done like some really great stuff over the past few years. Yeah, so I think the whole just like the attitude towards alcohol-free beer changed for them, I think before they'd tried a lot of beers and been like this is not really for us.
Speaker 2:I think it was more of that stance than that we're just not going to make one. I think it was more of just that it doesn't taste like they want it. They don't. They don't know how to get it, how exactly like one of their beers, like they've got a huge beer, steady, rolling man. They wanted to be on par with that and I think it got to the point where there were beers coming through that were rivaling because there's there's, there's a lot of beers out at the moment. They're really good. There's some. There's been some incredible beers out this january. Everyone's like putting their resources into it and trying to get this as close to the to the good stuff as possible, aren't they?
Speaker 1:yeah, january this year has been mad. It was ridiculous. I don't I've never had so many boxes of beer come to my front door in my life and I've seen some of your posts.
Speaker 2:You've had a crazy amount.
Speaker 1:It's been ridiculous. And breweries do this really lovely thing where they'll only let you buy like six packs some of them. So if you've got one alcohol free beer out that I need to get and you can only get it from the brewery, well, I was really impatient. To be honest, as soon as they'd announced things, like with Daya, as soon as I saw it I was like yep, buying it, buying it from the brewery, I want it tomorrow. So I had not only did I have about 40 different beers to film, I had like six cans of each of them.
Speaker 2:It was just. I mean, it's a small problem, right, I make one can available. If people want one can, they can buy one can. I've always been adamant that that's something that I want to do, because it's something that kind of annoys me a little bit too, but it doesn't annoy me. I mean, it's just one of those things that sometimes you want to try a beer first and then, if you like it, then you'll buy loads of them. So, yeah, I've always made one down available and it's turned out to be a real pain because, like it's just me, I make the beer, I pick and pack it, I send it off, I put the labels on the boxes and everything, like everything is done by me. And um, yeah, when you get four of these beers two of this, one of that and four of the other, you gotta sit there and go through loads of boxes. So january, most of my time was spent like picking and packing.
Speaker 1:See my next thing.
Speaker 2:I was gonna say it would have been so easy, just to do six packs, just do 56 packs and then just had them ready.
Speaker 1:But yeah, jobs are good and but that that makes me feel even worse now, because the next thing I was gonna say was that I've, I know, with you I think I've actively apologized to you when I've made an order once where I've ordered like just two beers because you, I think it was one of the overturned ones and it's like right, I need to buy this and I want one just to enjoy and one to film, but like I've got 30 in my fridge at the moment, so I can't justify buying a shitload of beer.
Speaker 2:I think it's something it's something that I've always wanted. I think just if someone wants one beer, let them.
Speaker 1:Let them try one beer yeah, like, as long as postage is covered, your end right and you don't have to worry about that and yeah, exactly and the thing is I don't mind paying like.
Speaker 1:I don't mind paying like with postage I don't know how much it would be let's like seven, eight pound for a can. That's a real loose like figure that I've plucked from nowhere. I don't mind paying that because it's like a treat to me, right like I'm not drinking it for any purpose, I'm just drinking it because it's. It's worth how much I apply to it like yeah, I think that's the thing. I've had this.
Speaker 1:I've been shocked recently by how the price conversation has come back into the alcohol free beer thing. Like I thought that that had kind of gone away, but I'm getting it quite often now. People go it's just the prices of it, but I don't get. So what? How much would you pay for an 11 percent like imperial stout? You pay a lot of money for that and I know that imperial stouts might be well, I don't know if they're difficult to make, I'm just assuming they are. But like, the amount of ethanol in a beer doesn't determine its price. That's just a natural thing. That happens when they brew it and you're brewing this stuff to not have ethanol. So it's the same process. So why I don't get the price point? I mean maybe tax, I don't know, I don't get the price point. I mean maybe tax?
Speaker 2:I don't know, I don't know. Yeah, no, I agree, I think sometimes people think it's dirt cheap to to make these, make good beers that are alcohol free, but it's not. I mean, you do save. You do save a little bit on tap, but I also pasteurize my beers too, which is a massive, massive expense. It's so expensive to get to get the beers flashed, so I lose all of that and bar like a little bit of malt. There's not much difference in it. They can cost the same.
Speaker 2:The yeast is wildly, wildly more expensive than brewer's yeast that I use. Um, I use the same amount of hops, the same. Yeah, I always insist on getting fresh hops, so ones that are 2024, 2023, those like new fresh hops that have just come into stock, and they're really expensive, and I use the same amount that someone would be using in in a session beer or a five percent palau. So there's not really that much saving there. Like malts are probably the cheapest thing out of out of everything and I still use quite a bit of that anyway. So there's there's not really like it's not massive markups there, it's light, especially when you're doing it on its scale. I suppose if you go in massive Heineken scale, then maybe those little increments make a big deal. But when you're making two, three thousand liters, it's, it's.
Speaker 1:There's no difference really yeah, when I was, um, I was looking into, well, when we had a chat when I was potentially gonna do some weird hybrid beer through someone that I knew and it that weird time in my life, um, and you were really, really sound and gave me some really nice advice, um, and when I got the pasteurization pasteurization even costed it was like shit, that's really expensive. Yeah then, like a really important step, I suppose, in an alcohol-free beer, like is that just something that you do for your own peace of mind or do you think that it really it needs to happen with alcohol-free? It's the gold standard.
Speaker 2:You know, like, if you're gonna, if you're gonna do stuff properly, it's, it's the it's the way to do it. Yeah, yeah, you're like, if you're gonna, if you're gonna do stuff properly, it's, it's the it's the way to do it. Yeah, yeah, you're, you're you're gonna have no problems with the beer. There's always going to be risks with everything, um, but you can skip it. And there's other methods and stuff too. But, um, yeah, I'd, I'd think why. I'm just gonna, if I'm gonna make something as good as I possibly can, let's go for gold standard yeah, it's, that's what I I like about your beers as well.
Speaker 1:It's like you know that there's been care and attention put into them. Like you say it's it's one guy doing it right, like this is your, this is your baby. And I think pasteurization is only something that I've really been looking into in the past year really, or really paying attention to it, and the more that you kind of notice it, the more you go oh okay, they care about that. Well, maybe not they care about that, but it's just like okay, that's a process that this has been through. So you can kind of associate it with a beer like, yeah, so it's a strange old thing, because isn't there's like, aren't there only two or three places in the country that do it? Or isn't it a really difficult thing to find? Or is it when you get further up north it's difficult?
Speaker 2:no, I don't think there's a lot of places that do it. There's, I think there's different, different stuff as well the tunnel pasteurizers, the ones that. So basically they put them on a big conveyor belt and they go through. They go through like a tunnel and they're sprayed with hot water and they're like perfect temperature and they come out and they're cold and it's just like a long conveyor belt. I don't think there's many of those in the country. They're quite expensive and I suppose there's been a whole thing over the past 10 years of craft beer.
Speaker 2:It's like the unflined, unfiltered, unpasteurized there's been on a lot of cans, like a lot of people try to avoid it to be like this is a natural product and we've tried to try to keep as much of that flavor in there as possible and it's it's going to be hazy and it's gonna um and it's going to be a living product. So I don't think there's been a big call for it over the last 10 years. So there's only a couple of places that do that. There's quite a lot of places that use like old technology, so they have big bath pasteurizers where they basically get big cages and dump them in water to a certain temperature. But I've never. Yeah, I don't know who does that, but I think there's quite a few of those places. Yeah, the tunnels are like what you want. They're really accurate and expensive to use and expensive to buy. So, yeah, I think there's only a few places that do it.
Speaker 1:It'd be interesting to see if, like, more places crop up that offer that with alcohol free kind of being on the rise, or if any big companies end up like offering pasteurization exclusive services, or if I set up any like establishment. This is me putting a lot of pressure onto the alcohol-free industry, you know what there's.
Speaker 2:I've heard of a few breweries investing in pasteurizers because they there's, there's, um, there's been a big rise this year in the smoothie type beers. Have you seen those in the alcohol world, like the really thick, basically innocent smoothies with?
Speaker 1:alcohol in them. I've also seen the milk. Is it milk? I don't know if this is relevant, but milk beer like the Czech milk beer yeah, I've seen that coming up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I'm seeing that coming up, yeah, so there's lots of those that have like loads of sugar that could potentially ferment later on down the line. So I think, with the rise of those, some breweries are investing in pasteurized and I think that's coming hand in hand with more people wanting to do alcohol-free stuff because they've got the pasteurizer there and they can run it through really quickly. So it's like it's come smoothie beers and alcohol-free beers are coming up in the world together what time you? Live in?
Speaker 1:yeah that is wild because, as I started saying, oh, I wonder if more places will like release pasteurization thing. Like, as I started saying it, I was like the fuck you want about ben? Like this isn't. Like yes, we're in an expanding world of alcohol-free beer, but like it's never going to be hand-in-hand with full-alc stuff, as much as I would love to see that being realistic, there's a ceiling here and we're definitely not at the ceiling yet. But you know it's never going to outperform the big elk industry because it just nor would I really want it to. I know that sounds backwards, but I don't want proper beer to go away. Proper beer. Listen to me, fucking hell, I've become everything I hate. I don't want full elk beer to go away because I think it's a wonderful thing. So, yeah, as I was saying, I was like no, this isn't going to drive that. But then smoothie beer who?
Speaker 2:knew.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There hasn't been an alcohol-free smoothie beer yet, so I feel like we need to go into that territory a little bit at some point too.
Speaker 1:What would be the clue? Some of the Omnipolo beers might be clue.
Speaker 2:True, yeah, they look incredible. I haven't actually had one of those, but, um, I've seen a few videos then they look pretty wild, yeah that's one of my favorite breweries, though they've always been one of my favorite breweries.
Speaker 2:They're just like everything about them is what I aspire to. They're another one. Them, them guys are mash gang because, um, omnipolo started as a contract brewery too. They used to do all of their stuff contracts. It was just one guy, um, they've only actually got a brewery fairly recently a few years but yeah they, they always did stuff in other people's breweries yeah, the stuff that they do like the it's the lassie goes as um the bianca range of the ones that they. That's the.
Speaker 1:Lassie Gozers and the Bianca range are the ones that that's actually done so much for me as well. Those videos, the amount of people that say I saw that and that's when I thought I can get on board with this.
Speaker 1:I mean it is just, I think I actually sent you one at one point when they did a teaser for it being released, and I was like Ben, look at this, like because it's the port, and then like over the top of the glass and like, let's be frank, it is just a party trick. Yeah, but fucking hell it's cool.
Speaker 2:Like these things still get me excited, like that's what I love about beer, and there's still room in all of this stuff for things to happen that are really cool, in all of this stuff for things to happen that are really cool. So, yeah, I don't know, it's not like it's turned into a real boring place and everyone's just trying to find the next thing to do. I think there's still really exciting things. And the omni polo cans god do they look good yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:I can't believe I've forgotten it the chap who does their artwork for them. We follow each other on, um yeah, instagram and he is just.
Speaker 2:He's amazing, can't believe I forgot his name. Yeah, no, I can't remember. I think I do follow him too.
Speaker 1:I want to say mark yeah yeah, yeah, but art director they're, they're really cool cans, I mean just the brewery as a whole is is really cool. But talking of like things changing and things growing and people looking for new things, I want to talk a bit about the vault city collab because I feel like vault city, like their sours, are great. I used to love the um, the blueberry sour that they did when I was a drinker of the booze. And then the MASH gang collabs came along and it was kind of a continuation of what Vault City were doing already. Like it was very fruit-heavy. It kind of towed the line between is this a beer? Is this a grown-up soft drink with the alcohol?
Speaker 2:free.
Speaker 1:But then you guys went and did a dry hot sour and it felt like drinking that, like the presence of the hops made it more of a sour beer than other alcohol-free sours. Was that? Was that you're doing? Was it something that they wanted to work on? Because I know they don't use many hops as a brewery really vault city anymore no, they wanted to make a dry hop sour beer straight up.
Speaker 2:Dry hop sour. They don't really use hops very often and I kind of got excited. I was like we should put every fruit that you can imagine in it and we can be make it amazing, until I finally realized that that's not what they really wanted. They, they really wanted to do the, the dry hop, something that was really kind of drinkable in january, that would stand apart from everything else and do something that was like quite quite brave on their part and I'd always wanted to do.
Speaker 2:There's a. There's actually a beer by day called break me into bigger pieces. It's a. It's like a dry hot um ipa, but it's got lemon and I think it's got lime in it too. That's just really good, like it's not overly lemon and limey. But you, where you've got hops, the lemon flavor kind of sits underneath it and and makes the hops taste a lot different. You get like a lot of that citrusy character. So I think that was kind of the idea to to have it more like a dry hot sour with an underlying kind of lemon to to to bolster it up, um, and yeah, I think. I think he came out really well, it was delicious.
Speaker 1:I've got, I am, I've got a crate of it arriving tomorrow, which is a nice little treat from um vault city, nice, because I spoke with he was called ben, chap, called ben for um that works there on their like business development team or something. He just emailed me out of the blue um, yeah, they are.
Speaker 2:They are a lovely bunch of people too. Yeah, just so nice. Steve the owner, he was one of the guys that were on board with what I was doing from early on. Um, he actually gave me a call I think it was just after I'd released my second beer and, um, he tried it and he was like I've, I really love these beers they're, they're tasting great. I've never had stuff like them. Um, we should do something at some point which is quite, which is like a real. It was, it was a call out the blue. I don't even know I got my number, but it was. It was a real call out of the blue. And and it was, uh, yeah, and another one of those amazing kind of marks that you put on on the year and, yeah, kind of thought, no more of it. And then, just before, well, like it was about november time, they, they invited me over to come and make something Amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That is mad, though Really lovely bunch. I think there's a lot of people that are scared to go on what they like and they go on what's popular and what they think they should be doing, rather than trying stuff and being like, oh actually, this is actually really good forming their own opinions and going with it. So I think I appreciate those things. When people, even if they said it was shit and said I don't like this, this is shit, at least they've formed their own opinion on it.
Speaker 1:I'm yet to have one of yours that I don't like, like genuinely. It's been ridiculous because, like even mash gang, like one in every 10 of their I mean I say one in every 10, that's not actually that that many, because they released like 700 beers at one point. It was like ridiculous. But even like mash gang, one in every 10 you'd have and you go, I get it, but it's not for me.
Speaker 2:This one, yeah, fielding's an absolute beast, though, like he'll turn around and make a week here and then all of a sudden, he'll be making an ipa, and then it'll be a cherry stout and then, like it still blows my mind how he did that for like near on what was it like? Three, four years consistently just bringing out crazy beers? Just to even have that amount of ideas is is just insane he's.
Speaker 1:He's an absolute animal when it comes to making, making beer, yeah considering like it was his first venture into brewing as well, like being in a lockdown company just from him making like mexican ferment. Yeah, it's, it's a ridiculous origin story. Yeah, it's an origin story. That is so fucking mash gang, isn't it like? Yeah, I was making cheese and then I made like a pineapple's peff I think it's called and then everyone called it the pineapple beer and then it turned into a brewery and then I mean, look what the rest is history, isn't it with them?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think that's. That's the thing with contract brewing, though, like you can't you're not there all the time like I go for brew days and stuff and then I effectively have to leave it somewhere until it's finished. You give like a little bit of a spec, like I want this amount of carbonation and this, but you never really know until till you get the cans back. So I think it's hard to always have really high quality when you're turning over a lot.
Speaker 2:Um, I think I'm quite lucky at the moment where I get to spend a little bit of time on doing things, and there's always stuff that I don't like. I'm like this needs a little bit more carbonation. I'll put a little bit more carbonation on the next one, or I'll do a little bit different on the next one. It's like little incremental steps, but yeah, like you never know if, if a beer come, if something happens and the beer comes out shit, at the end of the day, you you can't just tip that beer down the drain. You've got to go with it yeah, that's the thing, isn't it?
Speaker 2:especially when it's it's you know, you're still in year two, year three, whatever territory, which is a funny story because, um, I did actually do that with with the first beer that we um, so we was meant to bring this beer out in january, wasn't me?
Speaker 2:yes, yes, I haven't mentioned it but something did happen with the beer and, uh, it actually over fermented and we ended up with a one percent beer. And I could. I remember the. The thing that I was worried about the most wasn't the beer. It was calling you to tell you that the beer had over-fermented and I thought, can I get Ben to do a collaboration with me and release an alcoholic beer? And I was like that is the silliest thing.
Speaker 1:It would have been fucking hilarious though, wouldn't it? It would have been really funny.
Speaker 1:Releasing an alcoholic, an alcoholic beer yeah, I don't know how it tastes, you tell me. I can remember that phone call, I can remember it well, I mean it was sound. Because you're like, look, we're gonna do it, don't worry, we're gonna do it. Because, yeah, when you, when you like, we had the conversation about doing a beer together, like a fair, fair bit of time ago now, and it was one of those things where I was like I'm not, I'm gonna tell myself that this isn't gonna happen, but like, if it does, it's fucking amazing. Um, and then, when it was like you sent me the artwork and all of that and it was all right, january it's go, I was like this is real, like what.
Speaker 1:It was such a like there's been. There's been three like pinch me moments, or maybe four pinch me moments in the whole like journey of this, this like profile. I suppose the first was when mash gang followed me back, which was humble beginnings, you know, but it was like shit, because you know, mash gang and breweries like that, they, they changed my life. They made me realize that you know there was life after sobriety through beer, which sounds really lame, but you know it's a. It was a big deal to me. That was the first one, then it was the beer guild awards, then it was the collab beer, and then it was walking through westminster for um alcohol change uk and being like what, what the fuck what am I here, yeah, talking about incredible years.
Speaker 2:That that was a pretty good year for you last year too, wasn't it? There was some, some like amazing, amazing things. I just I'd turn around every month and you'd be doing something amazing for the scene. And this is this is not your job, is it? This is, this is something that you do out of pure passion and love.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's literally this is the thing that I do of an evening and like, ask the people in my house. It's like, can you just give me two minutes while I film this video? Like literally here, like where I'm sat now, and I mean like like with the podcast, it's like right at eight o'clock I'm recording, or seven o'clock I'm recording, or when I get home from work I'm recording, and it's like it's purely. It's like it's purely it's become an obsession because at first it was like a necessity, like I very much set up the page initially for myself, to keep myself in track with my sobriety and to give it like a public picture. So it's like if these people from school see that I've set up a page about being sober and then I start drinking again, they gonna think I'm a real fucking idiot. So you, can't drink anymore, can you?
Speaker 1:yeah, but it's become. It has become an obsession and I do see myself as like one of the people championing these producers and these beers and and sobriety, because I feel like I needed someone like that when I was going through it with addiction. I needed that looked like me and I could relate to saying like look, it's cool, it's fine man, but also not sugarcoating everything. And saying like sobriety is lovely, sobriety is great.
Speaker 2:Weirdly, since since doing this podcast again, since filming these episodes, I've actually had more romantic memories of my times drinking full-out beer than I've had in maybe 12 months yeah, and you do have to that's when you know you've got to a good place, though, doesn't it, when you're quite happy looking back on those moments and being like oh, it's young, we had some fun yeah, so it was fine.
Speaker 1:Nobody died, nobody died, we're fine, at least not that I can remember. But you know we're fine if they didn't.
Speaker 2:They didn't die, in all seriousness, it was fine it's a really good community as well, like all of the yeah, all of all of the writers, all of the, the beer drinkers, like it's. It's all part of a big community, and I think that's something that I, I really want to be part of too, and hence partly a reason for the collaboration. It'd be easy to just team up with a brewery and and do a brewery, but have, like, the actual people on the ground promoting this stuff and and are passionate about it. I think that's that means more. It means more to me than it does anything else, I think it was awesome for me.
Speaker 1:Like I mean, I've got it, can you see it? I've got like a shelf. Oh, you can't see it. So there, yeah, that little cork at the top is, um, the first ever mashgang bottle that was bottled, and then below that the vase is in the way. But is the first can that I opened of a of that beer really, and like I've swirled it out and it's like I'm keeping it forever because I just kept one, like I was. I was thinking of like can I resin, seal the top of it so the liquid's still there? Because if I kept it like just out for maybe like 10 years, if I make it that long, I don't want to just one day like the can to go like like I don't know if that can happen, I'm not clever enough the pasteurized.
Speaker 2:The only thing that will probably make it do that is if there's the presence of yeast inside, but it all should all be dead. I don't think it will taste great in 10 years time, but it shouldn't explode though.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, keep on oh, maybe I'll have to keep. I'll have to get a. I have to get another one and keep that as well. Yeah, I'm gonna be in a lot of trouble at home with all of this like beer memorabilia I keep coming back with. But no, like it was seen, it was just a really big deal. Like I had it earlier today I was looking at beers online which I just do now of an evening to see if there's any I've missed and I saw on a website sunburst like we could be friends sober booze's club, and I just clicked on it just to read the description be like fuck, fuck when I was drinking full fat stuff. And like really into craft beer and stuff, if you'd have told me that I'd be on on a beer, can.
Speaker 1:It's been like, oh, that's really cool, so to have done it sober, it's like that's just mad and it's funny that like sometimes it feels like things are a bit stagnant, like I could easily I could easily have a much bigger social presence by being that guy. That's like five myths about sobriety. Or like things that will happen to your skin when you get sober. Or like, oh, today I was really struggling and I didn't want to get out of the house and then I, you know, did some meditation and thought about how happy I am to be sober. I could easily have a bigger following through that, but it's just not authentic like I will advocate sobriety forever. But in my own kind of like, not every day is good and really what I'm interested in is beer and my thing is like that hasn't changed since I got sober. That's my advocacy for for sobriety is that you don't have to live a life without yeah, absolutely, and I think.
Speaker 2:I think people can tell authenticity straight away yeah, I think when things are not. I've seen quite a lot of stuff that I think is not and I generally think people can tell they probably get a few clicks and a few likes and stuff, but um, it never lasts long, does it? It's not a real deal unless it is the real deal when people do that and they genuinely I mean some people are really good at it and they're really into it and I think, if they're passionate about it and they do it it comes across as authentic, but if you're just trying to do it because you want to.
Speaker 2:Those clicks and those likes it.
Speaker 1:It doesn't come across well yeah, the people at like alcohol change uk, like you, millie goochers of the world and carl, and they think it's all sober podcast and people like that. I think they're doing amazing things and they are the bedrock of sober Instagram, which is weird. I live like a 50-50 life of sober Instagram and beer Instagram and it's really weird how those two worlds have kind of matched together, which is actually something that I think you've done really well. Is you really got proper beer people on board? I'm saying proper beer again, but you got the full fat beer people on board. When you started releasing beer, like these craft beer people that you wouldn't necessarily think would be drinking like non-alcoholic stuff, were really on board with your stuff, which I think speaks volumes, probably more than me enjoying it, to be honest.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think it's a bit of a cultural shift too, isn't it? I feel like, even as far back as five years ago, if you told anyone that you was living a sober life or you spent part of your time drinking alcohol-free drinks, it would often be met with yeah, it'd often be met with like they think you're a bit strange or they think you're a bit weird. But that cultural shift has changed now. So I think those beer drinkers those beer drinkers who probably drink a lot and they probably need a night off or two during the week it's like a good thing to go to. So I think, just culturally, there was, there's probably people looking for it too?
Speaker 1:yeah, I think so as well, and but I think it is. It's like I think it's people were looking for it, but actually the liquid just wasn't up to scratch yet, and if you don't do a load of research into it initially, like you had to like when I stopped drinking was three years ago and I had to really look for these beers, they weren't just openly available and I think now people are more on board with it and it's actually like you're more likely to see certain beers like in january has proved that.
Speaker 1:So I think it's these beers being in like public perception and people seeing more, it becomes more acceptable to try it. And then when you try it and it's good, because everyone's first experience of alcohol-free beer has probably been bad, right, I know mine was. Yeah, I I can't think of many people that have really enjoyed their first alcohol-free beer like I think my first ever one. It was a bex blue, but like this would be god 15 years ago. Yeah, that's scary. Yeah, yeah, I was at a family party and I was, I was driving and, um, some it was. I've got an uncle who's a bit like straight laced and he was like I've got some, some alcohol free beer. I think it's really quite nice.
Speaker 1:Try this I was like, hey, that's awful. Yeah, it was worse than bex blue is now, because I think becks blue has actually improved quite a lot, but I think a lot of those lagers the zero percent lagers are pretty decent, to be honest, like there's not really ones that I think are terrible.
Speaker 2:There's been a few beers I've had this year that have been awful, but there's not a lot of those big macro ones that are that bad. But, to be honest, all of the the old lager drinkers, if you, if you're a stellar person and you drink stellar all the time, you're very staunch in being being on board with that brand and you want, you don't try anything else. You can't have a madry because you don't like the taste of it or you can't have a holston pills because it's like it doesn't taste like your Holston Pills.
Speaker 1:Holston Pills got me through lockdown.
Speaker 2:But you know what Holston Pills used to be my favourite when I was younger. You used to go to I don't know why I just chose it.
Speaker 1:No, neither do I.
Speaker 2:Holston Pills is my beer.
Speaker 1:I used to go to Boo's Village at eight in the morning. So you know, this is, this is a sign. Um, and this was before I realized I was an alcoholic. Fucking make sense of this. During lockdown, I'd stay up until four in the morning getting real pissed and being on like zoom calls with people. It's my housemate, who I was living with like he's my best mate for like 10 years. He still lives with me part-time now. Um, he rents the garage because he's got a music studio out there. It's a weird modern setup that we've got going. I drink all of the beers in my house and then I'll be like shit. I've drank some of his beer. Booze Village opened at 8 in the morning. I'd go down, I'd buy a big pack of like 36 of them, carry it back home at 8 in the morning, go to bed, wake up at 12, repeat post and pills.
Speaker 2:It's an easy drinker, isn't it? Yes?
Speaker 1:Imagine if they did an alcohol free. Yeah. It would be awful but brilliant.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of those. I saw a madry one today.
Speaker 1:I was about to say I've got a can of that.
Speaker 2:No, a bottle, okay you know what I'm I've kind of got excited about recently and it's down to martin from alcohol free world, like he's always like. This beer is really good and it's a bottled beer from, from germany that I've never heard of. I've always been up to date, like these ones. I'm up to date on all the the trendy beers, the ones that I'll make the mash gangs and the tracks of the world. I don't really know any of the classics. I haven't really tried any of the ones that have been knocking about for for five, ten years and and are a classic on the alcohol-free scene. I don't know those ones, so I need to go deep dive on those and see what they're saying.
Speaker 1:So for me it's like I love hazy craft beer and throwing myself into that with your beers or Daya or Track or Cloudwater, that's my jam. But then something about like having a big bottle of like german hells. Yeah, you drink it and you go. I feel like I'm on holiday. Yeah, like that is a side of beer, because, because the germans have been drinking alcohol-free beer for decades, like it's just completely normal over there to go to beer halls and you have alcohol-free or full-alcohol version and they just go hand-in-hand.
Speaker 1:So I started drinking this stuff because Christian at Sturgey Wines and Spirits, they started by importing beers from Germany or from Czech beers and Belgian beers and things like that. So when he first got a contact that could get him german stuff, he was really excited by it. Yeah, and when I went in he was off look what I've got, and it was augustina um. And apparently that was a real big deal, that aug Augustina made an alcohol-free beer. And then, by doing some research into it, I was like shit man, this is ridiculous. And when I do buy these European beers and I have to do a bit of researching before, it's like the breweries are like 300, 400 years old. Yeah, jesus Christ, like I had like a Bavarian royal beer the other day. Um, I've got a couple of them in the fridge at the moment. Actually, it's like brewed by the prince of bavaria, it's like the history of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like old, established brands. Yeah, like I'm excited to go into those because I've heard that some of them are pretty incredible and they've been brilliant. Wouldn't know the difference and I know that sounds so like before recently they've been so far ahead of um the uk and alcohol-free beers. Yeah, I think it's probably the attitude changing. But yeah, you're right, the the germans are a lot more um willing to have an alcohol-free beer I think it is improving over here, like in tap rooms.
Speaker 1:I'm seeing a lot more like in tap rooms in particular. Like I think people that run establishments because they love beer are more often likely to offer an alcohol-free beer, because it's like respect for the liquid, isn't it? And for the art, and I think with alcohol-free it's a continuation of that art form. It's like we can do this now. Shit, well, let's do that and let's get creative with it, and like that's, that's for fun of it all isn isn't it? Like when you make a beer, you are creating, you're designing something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, it brings it back to that inclusivity thing again, doesn't it? Like tap rooms are for people who drink beers and want to get drunk and have a few 6% IPAs. But it's not anymore, is it? It's a place where you can go and have a drink, and you can go and have an alcohol-free beer and chill out and take in the industrial estate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, always an industrial estate. I suppose it makes sense because it is an industry. Yeah, you see people and it's like oh look, it's another industrial state.
Speaker 2:and it's like, yeah, you get the most land for the cheapest? I think it's either there or on the farm, isn't it yeah? Yeah, farm, farm, tap houses I mean farm breweries, though I've just started brewing beers at a farmyard up in lancashire and, being a central london kid, going up there on an actual farm where smoking just to get used to being, just to make your lungs feel like they're at home, yeah, and they, they.
Speaker 2:Once they finish with the malt, they put it on a, put it on a forklift, take it around the corner and then feed it to some cows and you're like this is, this, is cool, it's all going around, it's all like environmentally friendly and nice, and yeah, it's amazing yeah, everything is getting used.
Speaker 1:I think that is like I'm not saying that farmyards and and farmers only drink this type of beer, but I think that is something that I'd like to see in this country is, like your english ales really starting to get good. That will be interesting.
Speaker 2:I did see something the other day that they were trying to look for for styles what's going to be big this year, what's going to, what's going to break through a bit more? And it's always a resounding the that the the ipas are not going anywhere. People just love them, but there's going to be a little little peek in in good lagers too. People, people want those lagers and, um, yeah, traditional british styles too, some some of those being brewed more of like your milds and your bitters and stuff. Um, yeah, love a mild right, and me too. I love a bitter too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah I was a big like because where I'm, where I'm from, it was old farmer kind of area. It's like it's now a suburb of birmingham but my drinking days in my local area they're all proper old-time local pubs where my dad used to drink and it was all bitters and ales and and things like that yeah, they're all little gateways into into the craft beer world too.
Speaker 2:If you've just been, if you've been brought up in your your teens drinking and your early 20s drinking lager and then all of a sudden you have, I don't know, a wheat beer, it's kind of like that's that's the first time where you're like, oh, this can be different and I'll try some other stuff. And all of those things are gateways, aren't they?
Speaker 1:yeah, so it would be. It would be interesting, like some proper miles and and things like that. And yeah, I've promised that I won't talk about guinness. I've promised myself I won't talk about guinness, because I was listening back to every episode and I've mentioned fucking guinness in all of them. I love it though. It's so good. What they've done, I think is so important and I think old, peculiar and Proper Job those three are quite important Proper Job, really really good.
Speaker 1:Old Peculiar. It was really good when it was cold. When it warms up a little bit, it's like okay, I can tell that you're alcohol-free now, but the fact that they exist, it's like okay, we're making tracks here. I thought it was really good. Nirvana's Best Bitter.
Speaker 2:Yes, I saw it.
Speaker 1:That impressed me a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like Nirvana. They've been making a few strides. Recently I've seen everyone raving about one of the stouts that they made too.
Speaker 1:Did they make a milk stout? They made a milk stout and then they made a nitro stout. The nitro stout was the first beer of theirs in about a year, but I thought, no, it's not for me.
Speaker 2:The milk stout was fantastic yeah, maybe it's the milk stout. Someone was raving about saying it was very very good, like yeah, delicious. But nirvana amazing. So hopefully I don't think it'll be anytime soon with okay, I feel like it'll probably have to be towards the end of the year. But, um, yeah, doing a few trials of stouts too and I've got to a really good place with them. So I think, yeah, I'm excited to do a stout.
Speaker 1:If you could bash a mild out while you're doing it, that would be lovely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, they're quite similar. They're quite similar in recipe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was at a brewery not too long ago I won't say the name because I don't know if I'm allowed to. I mean, I am allowed to, it was me that said it, but I'm not going to um. But I was at a brewery the other a few months ago, um, somewhere in the south of england, and they let me try their like their first trial stout before it had any, like they were doing more to it. It was very early doors, yeah, and it was like, if you like, just canned this up and sold it as a mild. I'd drink that as a mild yeah it was spot on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think they they did a little tester of it or they did it for some event like a limited run of it, but I never got to try it in a final form but yeah, yeah, I'm kind of torn and I really want to do a straight up nice basic stout.
Speaker 2:And then I'm like I had some chocolate to it. Oh, should I add some coffee to it? I'm like, no, no, no, the idea was to make a nice basic stout. And I'm like, oh, but I could do, I could add some. Or Mashgang, have just added some cherry to it. That sounds really good.
Speaker 1:And then yeah, tell you what would be good. It was a Mashgang Australia and Big Drop collab. So it never saw the light of day in the UK, unless you actually trend into sending your account like I did. I think that must have cost him a fortune, but I'm not going to think about that. It was a biscotti stout. Yeah, my god, that was like that's probably the best stout I've had. Um, and there was nothing traditional about it, like it was it.
Speaker 1:It was as far removed from a, from a classic dry stout, as you're ever gonna get, but it was amazing yeah, and it was the first one that I drank that you know like with a lot of these, like I'm supposed to say fruited stouts, but I suppose in mashgang's case, like yeah, but with a lot of these like fancy st, like donut stouts, cinnamon stouts or pastry stouts, etc. The nose is like mmm. But then when you drink it it's just it's never quite, it doesn't quite live up to it for me ever.
Speaker 2:They always tend to be the ones that stay in the fridge the longest. Like I really love the sound of this stout, I'll have that tomorrow. And then I get around to it and I'm like I really love the sound of this stout, I'll have that tomorrow. And then I get around to it and I'm like, oh, I'll just put this one in the back of the fridge for later. So I feel like I never get around to drinking those and I've always been about making beers that I want to drink the most. If I had Guinness in the fridge, I know that it would be gone tomorrow.
Speaker 1:If I had a zero Guinness, yeah, I'd crack that open while cooking dinner and I'd be quite happy man. Yeah, I think there are particular beers, aren't there, that you know they're not going to last very long. Like weirdly, I've still got an Omnipolo can in my fridge, but it's not one of the like fancy bubbly ones. It's one of their Christmas beers. That was amazing. But it's one of their christmas beers. That was amazing, but it's, it's that beer where it's like when I feel like it when I really feel like it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's amazing everything else runs out.
Speaker 1:I'm getting there, I'm really getting there. I mean I say I'm getting there. I've got 30 beers in my like. In my beers I need to film fridge but it's like every time I want to drink one of those I have to like have you still got the little fridge. Yeah, yeah, that's the, that's my two you're gonna need a bigger fridge, ben.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I've got, I think it's so in in the little fridge. I've got all the beers I need to film and that's like pretty much full. And then the beers that are like for me, like beers like this one and like when I got our beer through, and all these vault city beers that are gonna land tomorrow, like because I've already filmed those. They go in like the food fridge. Yeah, and two shelves of the food fridge, and I'm bearing in mind it's like a five shelf fridge, two of them a beer. It's like, oh shit, this is. I didn't have this much beer when I drank. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's mad. I can't complain, though.
Speaker 1:I can't complain. It's a good time to be a non-drinker who drinks beer.
Speaker 2:I'm excited about this year. I'm excited to see where this whole thing goes, because we've had a really good year last year.
Speaker 1:I'm excited to see what you do next year or this year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, me too. Yeah, I struggled a bit with getting stuff in tank last year, so I think I'm starting to get going this year, so hopefully there'll be a few more beers on the horizon.
Speaker 1:Is there anything that?
Speaker 2:you think you've definitely got lined up or anything Any, I just want to get stuff released. I do want to do a few more collaborations with people, with the actual people of the world. I don't know who it's going to be yet or what company it's going to be or what band. I think some music ones would be really good. Some people have had their own journeys. They've got their message to tell. Hopefully we can do something. Putting a message across on a beer can. I've always liked the idea of that, especially if someone's had a journey doing something and if people are drinking a beer and they can read it and they can relate to it a little bit. I quite like the idea of that. So hopefully a few more collaborations with some interesting parties would be good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. I love that concept. I think that's really cool and I know it meant a lot to me when we got to do it as well, especially when the beer is really good. Like it'd be one thing just having your name on like a can of a half-assed liquid, but when it's like it's it might be my favorite. We can be friends.
Speaker 2:Beer like in general, like it's fucking tasty yeah, it's my favorite too I think we've finally got to little incremental steps in getting it tasting where I want it to be.
Speaker 1:It feels like every one that you've done, though, has got a little bit more like that. Like every like every beer that you've released, I've preferred a little bit to the last one. Um, yeah, although no, was um was you did the blue one, and then was it the orange and then ultraviolet, or was it ultraviolet then the orange? Uh, it was the orange, then the ultraviolet. Okay, the orange one I preferred to ultraviolet a little bit. Ultraviolet was a bit too creamy for me. Yeah, like it was still fucking banging, but from that, every single beer is like oh, he's not going to top this. Oh, yeah, he has. Oh, he's not going to top this, oh shit, he has. So I'm dreading the next one because it will put us out of business.
Speaker 1:Yeah we'll see. Last question Last time you were on with me 12 months ago, you said that you wanted to compete with table beers or to offer something that could be served or could hold up against a brewery's table beer In 2025, what do you think the purpose of a table beer is now, now that alcohol-free beer is where it's at? Because for me, I I struggle with placing table beers because I I feel like people that drink a table beer are doing it knowingly and it's okay. I'm I'm aware of the abv of this beer and I'm choosing something for that reason, whereas, when the alcohol-free is as good as it can be in 2025, do you think there's a place for it or do you think that table beers will start to be eradicated?
Speaker 2:They had a real surge a few years ago. People were trying to go lower and lower on ABV and it kind of ended up at 3.4, didn't it? That was like the bottom? That was like the floor of where everyone ended up at 3.4, didn't it? That was like the the bottom, that was like the floor of where everyone ended up. Um, I do see a place again. It's that that inclusivity of if all your friends are drinking six percent beers and you know you had one of those and you'd be on your ass making that loop full of yourself, then go for the 3.4 percent beer. You can hang with your pals. If you're into that whole drinking thing, then you can still do that. So I do think there's a place maybe not as much as there used to be um, in terms of like making beer, I do feel like there's a place for the 1% beers too, after accidentally making one, yes, which is coming out next week.
Speaker 1:I can remember that conversation, when you were like the thing is, I've got no problem with putting it out under just we Can Be Friends because you're not an exclusive sober brand, it's low and no whatever. But then you said I'll put it out, but it's made it taste weird as well. Whatever's happened. And it was like fuck.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it just kind of stripped everything out of it. But I do feel like there's a place for the 1% and 2 percent beers too, because I don't feel like they can really get you drunk but in terms of, like, what you can do with beer, maybe there's a little bit of exploration that the actual breweries not not me necessarily, but actual breweries can do in there. Um, because no one's managed to make good ones of those. So if the challenge is there and people are going to drink them, I think it's always been a bit of that weird thing of that like 1% beer you might as well go alcohol-free, or if you want to drink, go table beer.
Speaker 1:So no one's really explored that territory yet, but I do feel like there could be a market for it, sam, thank you very much for coming on again no worries you would have been invited had you not have asked.
Speaker 1:Um, but that's just the kind of relationship we have now, where occasionally I'll just be like oi, you're free to do this. So thank you very much and, um, yes, season three is already booked in. Right, yeah, we're doing 10 episodes. Right, me and you? Yeah, sound, sound, that's the whole season. Let's do it. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the sober boozers club podcast. My name is ben gibbs. You can find me on all the socials at sofa boozers club to go and see what sam is doing for yourself, which I really think you should do. Check out, we can be friends. Beer, please, if you do nothing else, because I've told you should do. Check out, we Can Be Friends. Beer, please, if you do nothing else, because I've told you to do that. You will thank me, I promise you. For now, you guys take care.