Sober Boozers Club
The Sober Boozers Club Podcast is brought to you by Ben Gibbs - Alcoholic. Since 2022 Ben has been sourcing and enjoying the best alcohol free beer the world has to offer and has been documenting these beverages during his sobriety journey. Ben has worked alongside craft breweries, bottle shops and sober activists to raise awareness of Grey Area Drinking and to help spread the word on the growing market that is AF/NA beverages, becoming the face of the Alcohol Free Beer Club and featuring on many podcasts, as well as securing a number of features on BBC Radio. In 2024 Ben became the first alcoholic in active recovery to win a British Guild Of Beer Writers award for commentary on beer. This podcast features experts from the Beer world, as well as Alcohol Free breweries and sober activists as we explore the world of Alcohol Free beer and sobriety.
Sober Boozers Club
Clean Break: Reinventing Life Without Alcohol
What happens when everything you've built your identity around suddenly feels hollow? Richard Casement faced this question after 20 years in the drinks industry when he realized alcohol wasn't serving him anymore – personally or professionally.
Richard's transformation began as a simple six-month break from drinking to train for a triathlon. But something unexpected happened: he felt better, thought clearer, and couldn't find a good reason to go back to alcohol. The only problem? His dream job selling premium spirits brands now felt completely misaligned with his values.
This clash sparked a profound journey that led Richard to create Clean Break – initially as an alcohol-free beer company, but eventually evolving into something more meaningful. "Clean Break represents making a clean break away from things that are no longer serving you," Richard explains, whether that's alcohol, limiting beliefs, toxic relationships, or unfulfilling careers.
What makes Richard's story particularly compelling is his honesty about the challenges he faced. Despite his extensive industry experience, launching a beer brand solo proved overwhelming. Rather than stubbornly persisting, he pivoted to coaching – helping others transform their relationships with alcohol and embrace healthier lifestyles through what he calls the three pillars: mindset, movement, and lifestyle.
Richard's perspective on sobriety challenges common myths, particularly the idea that alcohol reveals your true self. "When you stop drinking, you show your true self," he argues, "because it creates space for the feelings and values you have deep inside that were being suppressed." This revelation often makes people uncomfortable, driving them back to drinking to avoid confronting their authentic selves.
Whether you're questioning your relationship with alcohol, contemplating a career change, or simply interested in personal growth, Richard's journey demonstrates how our greatest transformations often begin when we're willing to step away from what no longer serves us.
Want to make your own clean break? Follow @takeacleanbreak on Instagram to learn how Richard's community is helping people create positive change in their lives.
To find out more about the wonderful world of alcohol free beer and to check in with me head to www.instagram.com/sober_boozers_club
This episode is not brought to you by any sponsors because nobody wants to sponsor me.
This is the Sober Boozers Club podcast. This podcast, we're going to talk to people from within these circles and find out a little bit about their journey, so you sit back, relax and enjoy. In today's episode, I am talking to Richard Casement, who's the founder of Clean Break. Now, for a little while, clean Break had an alcohol-free beer on the market and it was actually quite good, which is what first turned my head into his direction, if you like, they've since transitioned and they're doing something a little bit different, so I thought it'd be a good idea to have a good old chat about it. How are you, my friend? Are you? Well, I am.
Speaker 2:I'm well, there's this big yellow thing, if you can see it over my shoulder, kind of yeah, I've got a bit of that in the sky although I'm looking outside and there's an ominous, gray, even cloud of doom approaching me.
Speaker 1:So, uh, but what a lovely morning it's been.
Speaker 2:It's been nice, yeah, and we've had one of those days. I mean, you don't have kids, so this doesn't apply to yourself, but it's one of those days where you get to the end of half term and it's like right, okay, back to normal now, and then you realize that they've got an inverted commas, a training day at school and the kids are still off today.
Speaker 1:Oh no, I mean, it's nice that it's been sunny, but also, oh God.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I haven't even thought about how annoying training days must be for parents. I just remember them being wonderful for me as a child.
Speaker 2:You have to use the best, the strongest reframe mindset that you can, because otherwise you could end up like you just really getting on top of you and it just is what it is. You know you can't control it and luckily I'm really grateful that both myself and my wife have a degree of flexibility in our working lives now, so she's just kind of binned off at me in this afternoon and taking the rest of the day off and taking the kids to the park, and I sort of had them this morning.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and now you're here to chat nonsense with me yeah, good, I love it very it's a very important commitment that you couldn't possibly get out of absolutely yeah, the most important commitment of the day. Well, I'm uh, I'm honored. We are, of course, here to talk about Clean Break. Clean Break has been through many facets in its time. Talk to me about how it all started for you.
Speaker 2:When did you decide to set up Clean Break and what is it about? Yeah, so it's probably worth kind of going back in history a little while to sort of give a bit of the the listener a bit of an understanding of you know, my, my past and I think you know talking about what clean break is now and what it means to me and what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. It's. I think it's it's relevant to bring that part of the story into it as well. So for over 20 years I I spent my pretty much all of my working adult life working in the drinks industry in some way, shape or form. So, initially managing bars and restaurants. Love being in service of others, love the buzz, love the energy, you know, and ultimately you kind of had the opportunity to to do your hobby as a job, you know, kind of being around people getting drunk, get paid for it and then also get drunk at the end of the night as well. So, um, yeah, so that that was the first part of it. And then I went into sort of sales roles, um, when I was about 28, firstly a bit of recruitment for bars and restaurants and then into sort of sales roles, working with drinks brands, alcohol brands and I did that really for best part of about um, about 10 years really. And then obviously COVID hit. Funnily enough, I'd, literally, just as COVID hit, I'd just started what was ultimately my dream job with working with an agency that had lots of spirits brands that I'd worked with as a bartender and you know I kind of admired and sort of got headhunters to go and join them and set up their national account division. So for me it was like, wow, this is kind of like I've achieved my dream almost at the time. And then COVID hit and I think, like for a lot of people, covid ended up.
Speaker 2:Now I can look back and realize it was a period where I probably not knowingly, but I was internally, I was mentally and physically really starting to question my relationship with alcohol, not from a sort of an addiction or or a dependency perspective, but just from how much, how much value it was bringing to my life. Was it really serving me in the same way as it had done through my 20s and 30s? And you know, we had young kids, young family and I think ultimately deep down inside I knew it probably wasn't. But then obviously, when went back to work, started to go back to work during COVID and the on-trade came back alive, sort of stop, start, that kind of thing, you know and trying to really sort of pick up the pieces a little bit and get back into it. And I found it really hard to do that and I couldn't pinpoint what it was and I knew something wasn't quite right, but I didn't know what it was.
Speaker 2:And then it was sort of summer of 2021 when the on trade fully reopened, pubs and bars fully reopened, and we sort of knew it was going to be for good, there wasn't going to be any more lockdowns because otherwise it would have been pretty catastrophic for the industry and, um, I just simply couldn't get back into it. I I had lost what I felt like was my inspiration, was my mojo, my motivation for it, and I couldn't understand why, because it's what I'd done for 20 years. I was like this is this feels really weird. This feels really uncomfortable and I started to sort of spiral into a bit of depression.
Speaker 2:Really ultimately, you know, really poor mental health. Um, really questioning myself, my, my, my worth within the job, within the career, and then ultimately found myself at my kitchen table questioning my worth on this planet as well, which is quite a worrying thing for someone who's generally been quite upbeat and and positive in life, so kind of knew I needed to do something about that. Got to the end of the year and, although I didn't think alcohol was the root cause of the problems, I sort of had a pretty good idea it wasn't, wasn't going to be helping the situation from a mental health perspective. So so I decided to take a break, and initially it was a six-month break from drinking and I signed up to a half-iron distance triathlon in the summer of 2022. And that was my reason, that was my excuse, because you've got to have an excuse, haven't?
Speaker 1:you, you can't just do it for the sake of it. That would be ridiculous, right.
Speaker 2:Why would anyone choose not to drink alcohol?
Speaker 1:I still don't understand that, right no, why would anyone choose not to drink alcohol? I still don't understand that. Yeah, years in, I still don't understand why anyone would choose to do it like if I don't have to choose not to drink it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, like, for me it just it got to the point was like I'm not sure I'm enjoying this anymore. I think I'd. I think in as many ways I'd sort of complete, I feel like I've completed alcohol. You know, if alcohol was, if alcohol was like, you know, a nintendo 64 game, if it was like super mario brothers, I think I'd completed it. I'd killed bowser or, like you know, I'd gone through all of the, the cheat codes and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah, because it, because it was not just my identity outside of work, it was my identity in work as well, and it would it played such a big part of my life for so many years, I think. I just, I think deep down inside, I wanted something different. You know, I wanted change, but I didn't really appreciate it at the time and then, you know, started taking that break. Um, you know, obviously started to reap the benefits, certainly physically and mentally as well.
Speaker 2:Within, you know, a few months I started working with coaches myself who were supporting me in terms of kind of helping me work on my mindset. I tried therapy in the past and never really felt it was something that I kind of got on with for whatever reason, whereas my coaches were able to help me look at you know more, more towards. You know what was the future? You know what. What. What were my strengths? What was I good at? You know what? What could I draw on to help me step forward into growth in my life? Um, rather than reflecting on the back on the behind, on the past and the things that I was, you know, ashamed of or felt guilty of or you know whatever it was so, so that really helped cement that, that alcohol-free choice. And then the event came in the middle of 2022 and I did that, completed it, and you know, kind of at that point, it probably should have been like all right, are you ready to have a drink? I think all my mates were like, well, are you going to start drinking again now? And I was like, well, I don't see why I would like feel great. I don't really desire to. I don't really feel like I want or need to have a drink. I'm physically fitter than I've been in god knows how many years. Mentally, I feel really, really on the ball.
Speaker 2:The only challenge I had was that I still worked in this, this job which was selling alcohol. So I kind of a bit of a dilemma of fairly gargantuan proportions and, um, yeah, so I've had to sort of decide. You know what, what was I going to put first? Was I going to put my mental health first or was I going to put this, this fairly successful, you know well-paid career first? And I chose the former. You know I chose to to to sort of support my mental health and well-being, because I think I'd got to a point where I realized that I probably hadn't been doing that for many years, I hadn't been putting my, my mental health, my overall well-being first and I've been, you know, sort of sacrificing that, um for in the chase of of pleasure, really more than anything else, um, and sort of short-term pleasurable experiences, those dopamine, those quick dopamine fixes. So, yeah, made that decision to to move away from that career.
Speaker 2:I knew what I. I didn't know what I wanted to do at the time. This is the thing. I didn't have a clue, because it's all I've done for 20 years and I dropped out of uni twice, so it wasn't like I had like a sort of a really fancy degree that I could lean back on and go back to. It was like this is all I'd ever known and, and although I didn't know what I wanted to do, I knew what I didn't want to do, and it was it was sell booze anymore. It just didn't align my values.
Speaker 2:So, anyway, I ended up coming across a job which was a bit of a segue out of what I was doing. It was still working with hospitality operators, so some of the contacts and relationships that I'd established but but selling a different product, um, not alcohol. And so I thought, well, do you know what? That's quite a nice segue. It wasn't the product, wasn't particularly anything that I was interested in. It was. It was security staff, so door staff, basically. So so, working for the uk's biggest security staff provided to the hospitality industry, and it was based in leeds where I lived. Really nice people, they really bought into me. I bought into them and thought, yeah, do you know what? This is? A great opportunity, well paid.
Speaker 2:So I took that opportunity and going back to where clean break started, it started in the car with my wife and my kids on my way. I can't remember where we were going I think we were going for a walk somewhere perhaps but it was in the period of my notice period, between when I'd handed in my notice at my previous job and before I went to join the security company. I remember sitting in the car with my wife and I was thinking about, like you know, mulling over what I'd done, my change, my decision to change what it meant. You know what I was walking away from 20 years of a career, all invested, you know, and what that all the kind of you know, the fears and doubts and everything like that was going in my head. I remember looking at my wife and thinking and said to her I'm gonna write a book and she sort of went, all right, she sort of looked at me okay, right, all right, let's uh, let's hear what that's all about. So I said, yeah, I'm gonna write a book.
Speaker 2:It's gonna be called clean break my inverted commas messy divorce from alcohol, because I thought actually it represents what clean break represents. Is commas. Messy divorce from alcohol, because I thought actually it represents what clean break represents is is making a clean break away from things that are no longer serving you, or taking a clean break away from things that are no longer serving in your life, whether that's alcohol, whether it's drugs, whether it's lifestyle, whether it's environment, whether it's social circles, whether it's a career, whether it's a relationship, whether it's, you know, limiting beliefs or whatever it might be, a particular mindset, I thought, yeah, there's something in that, I'm going to do that. Anyway, that idea kind of quickly got rationalized in my head and realized that it probably wasn't a long-term career opportunity or something that was going to make me any money, and so I put that on the back burner. But the idea of clean break I couldn't get rid of that know that just really resonated with me. There was something in it. So I went to.
Speaker 2:When I first started working the security company, I went back to working with my coaches and I went away on a long weekend with them like a men's retreat, kind of health and well-being retreat, with everything from meditation, yoga, cold water, immersion, breath, work, you know all this kind of stuff. But we also spent some time working um a lot on on limiting beliefs and kind of goals and what we wanted to achieve in life and things that may be holding us back. And something that came up for me in that process was that I'd always wanted to start my own business. I'd always aspired to work for myself, to have my own, you know, to be able to, to be in charge of my own kind of destiny and have that flexibility for life, lifestyle around. You know, kids and things like that, and that sort of came out of it.
Speaker 2:And then I sort of come back to this idea of clean break. I said, well, maybe clean breaks the thing that that gives me this opportunity to start a business, and then what does that look like? How can I realize that? How can I bring that to life? And actually I sort of put two and two together and realized that my 20 years of experience in the drinks industry and with the the category itself, alcohol-free drinks category booming, I thought, well, actually, maybe there's something in this, maybe this is the opportunity, maybe this is the sort of the ichiga, if you like, all of those things coming together. You know something you're good at, something that can make you money, something you enjoy and something the world needs, sort of all these things coming together. I was like, yeah, well, that's it. So that's essentially where clean break was um formed, if you like, and the concept of it, the idea for it, and then, as they say, the rest is sort of history.
Speaker 1:It's a it's a big decision to make, like coming out of that career with a family, as you say, and kind of nothing initially to fall back on. But the seed that was planted of I want to do something that works for me. I think especially if I don't know if you would classify yourself as an alcoholic, because of course alcoholism comes in many forms you know you can have a bad relationship with alcohol without being an alcoholic, because of course alcoholism comes in many forms. You know you can have a bad relationship with alcohol without being an alcoholic. Um, it's something that kind of resonated with me. There was when you were saying, like you know, it was just a six month break, but then afterwards you say, why would I go back to this once?
Speaker 1:you kind of break that, that relationship with alcohol, you do kind of start to question it like I've known so many people that have only that have only intended to take like two months, three months off and they're still not drinking today, and this is years down the line. I think everyone's relationship with alcohol is a very individual one, which is quite interesting really, because I know when I stopped drinking I kind of viewed alcoholism as a, as a one-size-fits-all sort of thing. You'd think of an alcoholic or you'd think of somebody with a negative relationship with alcohol, and it would very much be like the stigma would enter your brain Like, oh, brown paper bag, usually an older kind of scruffy man.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But it's not like that at all, is it have? You found like, since you've started with clean break, that you're working with people that are maybe sober, curious, people that drink regularly but just want to address their relationship with alcohol a little bit yeah, yeah, definitely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I think it is becoming much more accessible now. I think you know what we talked about at the start this idea of, you know, choosing, actually making, actually making the choice as a positive lifestyle choice, the spectrum addicted to, whether it's, you know, doom scrolling, social media, pornography, chocolate, sugar, whatever it might be that we've all got these kind of compulsions in our lives. And I think it used to be the case that and it wasn't that long ago really, when I think this started to change, probably five or six years ago perhaps but used to be the case that you were either an alcoholic or you weren't. And if you weren't an alcoholic, then what's the problem? You know, just crack on. But I think the reality is very different. You know, we're all on this sort of spectrum. You know, with all of those things, not just with alcohol, we're on that spectrum and I think at one end you've got sort of total abstinence, sobriety, whatever you want to call it. Then you've got kind of compulsive tendencies, then you've got the sort of dependence and then the sort of the addiction at the sort of the sharp end of the spectrum, I think. Um, so I think we recognize that there is a spectrum now that comes into it and I think when we can, when we can show and highlight that to people, it makes the, it opens the conversation up, that it shows that there's much more nuance to it.
Speaker 2:One of the things that frustrates me at the moment is this this this lack of nuance in so much in life. You know that there's so many people look for, you know extremes. It's this sort of black and white thinking you know kind of. It's either good or bad, up or down, high or low, red or what, red or black, red or blue, black or white. This kind of real black or white thinking where you know you either have to, it has to be one thing or the other, and that there's just so much more nuance to life in general. And I think I think people's relationship with alcohol sits in that category. Yes, of course addiction is terrible and and you know it's it is driven primarily by this substance that we are actively promoting and marketing to people, which is highly addictive and neurotoxin essentially, and it has the potential to ruin lives and, at the extreme end, take lives. So it's really bad. But actually I think the 60%, 70%, 75%, 80% even of society, especially in our sort of western society sits somewhere in that middle bit, you know, and and where do people sit there if they don't want to sort of label themselves as as addicts or alcoholics, and they're perhaps not striving for total abstinence or the idea of never drinking again is a really difficult thing for them to to, to sort of comprehend? Where does that leave people in that that mid middle space, you know?
Speaker 2:And I think that that's where I sort of found, and still do find, myself. You know, I've I've never said I'm never drinking again. Um, I've always taken the, the sort of the, the approach that I know I'm not drinking today, 100 guarantee I'm not drinking today and I'm pretty sure as hell I'm not going to drink tomorrow. Beyond that, you know what will be will be and it's. It's impossible to predict the future, but but all we can do is look to to create the future. But we do that in the here and now and that's living in this moment.
Speaker 2:And I think, in terms of my own relationship, no, I never really sort of class myself as a dickseed or an alcoholic. I think there's dependency in there, but but more you know, my identity was dependent on alcohol, given the job I did, and I think that then came with some emotional dependency. But I think when you work in the drinks industry, think you, if you have a problem with alcohol, that's a really big issue because you are literally it's like a drug drug dealers don't get high on your own supply. Yeah, it's one of the things that drug dealers would often say um, you know, and and I think that's the case with with people who work in the alcohol industry I think that there's almost this recognition that there needs to be a degree of sort of barriers or a sort of a safe, self-imposed safety mechanism in there, some somewhere. And although there, although there was a high occurrence of nights out entertaining customers and going on trips to vineyards and breweries and distilleries and all that kind of thing where we in-buy more than probably is recommended, I never really felt like the alcohol was the problem. I think I look back now and 100 appreciate that it was causing it, not that it was causing me problems. It was at times causing me problems, not towards the end of my drinking, it was more that the the alcohol was preventing was one of the things. That was probably the main thing that was preventing me actually deal with my other problems, the underlying problems that I had, which was you, the mental health and depression and the anxiety and all that kind of stuff. So I think that's that's kind of where I sort of sit on the on my views of it.
Speaker 2:I had a great podcast the other day.
Speaker 2:You know Mark Manson, author of the Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck, he was on.
Speaker 2:He was on Rich Roll's podcast, if you know Rich Roll bit of a hero of a hero of mine, and they were talking about his journey of sobriety, because Rich Roll big advocate for AA and that kind of approach to things and Mark Manson at the time of recording was about two years alcohol free and they were chatting about it and he said something which really resonated with me.
Speaker 2:And they were chatting about it and he said something which really resonated with me. He said I never thought of myself as a, as an alcoholic or I never thought of my drinking as a problem when I was drinking. It's only since I've stopped drinking, made the decision to stop drinking. And the longer that that's gone on, the more I reflect back on it and think it, think about it as a problem or think about it as problematic, and I think that's so true that there's a phrase that a good friend of mine uses, which is when you're in the jam jar, you can't read the label. Nice, it's not until you get yourself out of that jam jar and you're outside and you can actually read what's going on inside it.
Speaker 1:I think for me it was very similar. It was so easy for me when I was going through it to blame alcohol, because I got branded an alcoholic maybe six months to a year before I stopped drinking. It had always been something that I was kind of dancing with and I'd refer to myself as an alcoholic and kind of pretend that I was trying to moderate. But obviously I wasn't. And something that came up in conversation was that the alcohol isn't the cause of your issues here. The alcohol isn't causing all of these problems, but the alcohol is a lubricant to these behaviors that display themselves. Because until you cut the alcohol out you can't start to address what's going on wrong with your life, because you'd probably be the happiest person in the world and have a drink and be relatively okay, but none of us really are that content. Really everyone comes with their own baggage, don't they? I mean, alcohol really does lubricate those issues and it allows those to kind of fester it's so funny.
Speaker 2:It's like, like I, I do. I do strongly believe that you know people. There are people that can moderate and drink alcohol in moderation. My wife's a moderator. She has absolutely healthy relationship with alcohol, despite you know, we know that there is no health benefits to consumption at any level of alcohol and I, you know, I'm never one for sort of promoting prohibition and you know that kind of thing. I think we all, you know, we all make our own decisions in life and that's the great thing about living in, you know, a diplomatic society that we all get those choices of how we live our lives. But yeah, I think it's certainly people always see people.
Speaker 2:I always used to find it hilarious that, or now I find it hilarious that people say and I used to say this, I used to think this, because it was a story and a narrative that had been perpetuated around alcohol, one of the many stories and narratives, let's face it, that's perpetuated around alcohol and that's that you show your true colors when you've had a drink. You show your true self when you've had a drink and because the alcohol, you know, makes you say the things that that you know underline, you believe in your head, and I think that's absolute bullshit. I think I think when you stop drinking alcohol and you remove alcohol from yourself, you show your true self, because it creates the space and the void for the, the feelings, the emotions, the beliefs, the values that you have deep inside you, intrinsically within you, that you perhaps were suppressing before and you didn't really appreciate and realize. It gives those, it gives those things an opportunity and a space to exist and come up to the surface without being suppressed. So I think actually what happens is when you stop drinking, you remove alcohol, your true self comes out and who you truly are comes out.
Speaker 2:And I think that's sometimes what stops people from continuing the alcohol-free journey, because that can feel quite uncomfortable, because it's almost like this recognition that, oh, the person that I thought I was and the behaviors that I I was putting outwardly and the beliefs are actually not who I am. And I'm not sure I really want that vulnerability, that level of vulnerability or sensitivity or emotional awareness or whatever it might be. I'm not sure I really want that. So I'll go, you know. I think maybe I'll go back to my old ways and use the crutch of alcohol to suppress that.
Speaker 2:But actually I think that when you drink alcohol, it turns you into someone that you're not. It doesn't turn you into the true version of yourself. It turns you into someone you're not and you end up saying things that you don't mean and you don't believe and you don't want to say, you don't want to act in a certain way and you do things that you don't want to do. You end you end up ringing the dealer and getting a bag of gear in to invoke a sober up at two o'clock in the morning. That kind of stuff it's not. It's for me, it's the other way around.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I absolutely have found that, like I'd wake up and think I don't feel like I'm that person, like all of the stuff that had happened the previous night, I didn't feel like that was me, or I didn't want to believe that it was me, and and I realized I was an alcoholic. When I could have that conversation with myself and say this turns you into somebody that one you don't want to be and two, you don't really feel like you are. And I knew that that happened when I drank, but I carried on drinking. So that's when, for me, the kind of penny dropped. I went right. I'm in a little bit too deep here. I've got no control over this anymore, over this anymore, because I think it does it.
Speaker 1:Just every negative thought that you can have because in in a day we all have horrible thoughts are in the monologues. You know that's just a part of living. Like we do have these nasty thoughts that crop up just for a split second and then you go. That's, that's stupid. When you're boozed up, there's no filter there. Or like you don't know what's gonna happen. Like you throw caution to the wind with it once you're, once you're in the clutches of baboos. Um. So yeah, I agree with you. I don't think that it's a reflection of our true selves. And I mean if, if it really is. All you have to do is go on a night out with a big group of people and look at all of the drinkers around you to think, god, we must all be terrible. Like some of the stuff you see when you're not drinking. It's like what the fuck is this? It's like you know, in Mean Girls when they're all like zoo animals. It's kind of like that. You look around and it's like shit man, these people are feral. It's scary, it's really bizarre.
Speaker 2:Like to experience do you remember things like booze britain on tv, like shows like that, where it was just like so to look back on it now like I sort of I'd watch it in my 20s and you know they'd be going out to like iron apple and places like that and it was. You know it was. It was the sort of typical brits abroad type stuff. But those those behaviors so normalized and entrenched in in our sort of society and belief of how we should be in sort of late teens and 20s, be spending our summer holidays, that sort of stuff it's absolute madness. When you do look at it from an outside, you know, is that and there's an argument to say, is that part of of growing up, you know, in in a in a western society? I I don't know, but a lot of the younger people now are leading the way when it comes to that idea of purposefully choosing sobriety and and choosing the the healthy lifestyle option yeah, I think it's one of those.
Speaker 1:Like you know, I think we all we kind of learn from the mistakes of generations before us, don't we? Like I look at people that are a little bit older than me and some of their kind of approaches to life just seem so Dickensian to me.
Speaker 1:Some of the things that people say, and I mean you've got the classic like defense for racism, being like, oh, it's generational, it's generational, it's like no, it's like no, it's not you people. You learn not to be like this. You know, and I think that these younger generations are looking at probably things like booze, britain and seeing people strapped to chairs in clubs with a lot of like ladies yeah, dentist chairs with people that have been completely sexualized that work in these establishments pouring shots of whatever down the guy's throat.
Speaker 1:That is then gonna be really inappropriate to this poor person that works in this establishment, like a few hours later, I think people look at that and go this isn't okay. How is this this okay? And it's kind of well. It was made to feel okay because when you're like 12 points deep, nothing really feels that unacceptable, does it. So it is interesting to see how younger generations are that education piece.
Speaker 2:I think is so important that you highlighted there that knowledge and education and I think that's the difference now compared to, say, even five years ago, certainly 10, 15 years ago I think the level of awareness that we, we now have, you don't need to look very far now to to find out the sort of the true reality of the. You know the impact that alcohol has on you, whether it's from. You know the effect it has on sleep or blood pressure or the risks of cancer or that kind of stuff. You know that information is so much more readily available now, although it's not as available and publicized as much as I think it should be like, in the same way that you know we don't like drink responsibly, I think is a is a really kind of humorous sort of concept which the alcohol industry has kind of come up with, almost like a sort of their version of, like whitewashing or greenwashing. You know it's like oh, and just almost like that tick box at the end. It's like, oh, you know, come and buy six bottles of wine and get 25% off. You know, do it now whilst it lasts. You know, come to happy hour, but make sure that you drink responsibly when you go home and don't consume it all at once, but make sure you then come back within a month and buy your shopping again from us and drink more alcohol, but make sure you drink responsibly.
Speaker 2:It's like we don't tell people to smoke responsibly. We quite clearly put the dangers of smoking on the packets of cigarettes and we hide them away from the eyes of young children. And that isn't happening with alcohol, and I really think it should be, because, not that I don't believe in people having personal choice, but I don't want my kids growing up in a society that we did, whereby, you know, the type of behaviors that we were acting out when I was, you know, sort of in my late teens and early twenties, was just so normalized. You know, I want them to be able to sort of make informed decisions, and for me it was. It was never an informed decision, it was just like it was.
Speaker 2:It was I was one of the sheep in the pack, you know, and you know I was. I was following what everyone else did, you know, because everyone just, you know, assumed that that was the thing that you had to do on a Thursday, friday, saturday night to have fun. And if you didn't, then what were you doing. And then obviously the next day the easiest way to take the edge off the hangover was to go and have another drink. I think just that awareness that's raised now around the dangers and the realities of alcohol I think is making a big difference, especially to the younger generation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it is just informed choices, isn't it? Like you know, I I chose to smoke when I was younger, knowing that it was something that wasn't very good for me. I chose to drink, thinking that drinking excessive amounts of booze probably wasn't good for me. But you know, your liver regenerates and all of that. And obviously the education that is appearing now is suggesting that actually no level of alcohol consumption is safe. But again, I'm not somebody that would would ban alcohol. I think it's a, it's a lovely thing. If anything, I enjoyed it too much, um, so I don't think that we should get rid of it, but I think the education around it is something that needs to be really improved upon.
Speaker 1:Something came to my, to my mind when you were talking about that the supermarket deals. I bumped into my uncle in in morrison's the other day and he was like two big, big boxes of madras, like 14 quid for one, 20 quid for two. You got to have two, haven't you? And in my brain I was just like don't think about it, ben, don't, just kind of go. Yeah, yeah, you do. It's like fucking hell, man. Like read the room. Read the room, man. Like you're bumping into me, like looking at the bloody alcohol-free stuff, being like, well, what's new here? Because I always go and just have a look. It's like taking me to a fucking aquarium, right, just gonna go and stare at the bottles.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was just like 14 quid for one when he quit for two. Fuck me, like we've got no chance. That's marketing for you, isn't it? When you've got companies that have got multi-billion dollar global marketing budgets, that have have a you know um allowance and acceptance to go and market and promote something, as you know, potentially as dangerous as alcohol, as addictive as alcohol, you know, in a creative way, and it's it's like emotional blackmail, isn't it marketing? You know it's like it really is. If you, you know, get one for this price, or when, if you don't get two, you're not going to save some money, you know you'll be really stupid.
Speaker 1:if you didn't get two, you're not going to save some money. Yeah, you'll be really stupid if you didn't get two. You would be so dumb not to get two, and next week was a brand new deal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then sort of you know, alcohol brands are lining themselves to celebrities and you know there's a particular alcohol brand which you know I find humorous. That wraps it Essentially it's lowest level neutral grain spirit masquerading as as vodka, and it's laced with flavorings and sugar and and sugar flavorings and things like that and e-numbers, and then it's wrapped up in a gold, gold plated bottle and like people in marketing in alcohol sort of absolutely lured this brand because they've, they've, they've, their growth is stratospheric and people are like it's the cleverest thing ever. It's like what happens if I put a wrapped packet of cocaine in gold leaf and called it white gold and started sending that out? Would that be a really clever piece of marketing?
Speaker 1:I already want it. That's just me like. The kind of the devil up on my shoulder was like yeah, yeah, it's hard.
Speaker 2:It's hard to think, though, isn't it? Yeah, that's the thing I remember. I remember that dan riley, you know dapper last dan, you're right, yeah, he's always taken this sort of approach. He's like you know, drugs and out. Drugs or alcohol is a drug. Let's wrap it up all in one and say what it is. Drugs are glorious, you know. They are fundamental glorious, because if they weren't, then it's probably highly likely that people wouldn't do them quite as frequently as they do yeah, yeah, people are going to do something.
Speaker 1:That's not shit. That's not shit, yeah in the moment.
Speaker 2:In the moment it makes, it makes you feel pretty good for a short period of time, you have a great time. But it's the consequences, and I think this is one of the things which I talk to people now in terms of reframing their, their relationship with alcohol, helping people do that. You know it's. It's, you know. Can you drink without consequences? If yes, great, good for you. I'm somewhat jealous if you can't, you know. The next question to ask is are those consequences worth paying? You know, and I think if. If they're not, then it's. It's the time to sort of have that real, honest, frank conversation with yourself. It says am I better off just leaving it? Because some of us are all or nothing people and that middle ground doesn't exist.
Speaker 1:Going back to Clean Bray, what did the first 12 months of that look like? Obviously, you've left work. You've landed upon something that really resonates with you. You thought I'm going to throw myself into this. Where do you even begin with that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it took me about six months to six to eight months, I think it was to actually get the product from from just literally an idea in my head to market. You know, and and I sort of did that really all by myself I had some help. Like I'm not a brewer, you know, I I I kind of get the basics of brewing, but you know, I wouldn't, didn't know where to start when it came to alcohol-free beer brewing. You know, and I, luckily, at the time when I started, when I was researching things and I started to look at different brands and different alcohol-free do, competitor research and things like that, I was in Leeds for a night out and I had a pint on draft of a really good alcohol-free beer In fact it was the best one I'd tried and it was on draft. I was like fucking hell, that is really good.
Speaker 2:I was chatting to the bartender about it and I was like is this your own? And they're from? It's from um, a brewery here in yorkshire called vocation brewery and um, it was like. It was like um, it is ours, but it's a collaboration with um, another brewery, who do the recipe and then we do the production of it. I was like oh, who's that? He said oh, it's mash gang. And I was like I've never heard of them, never heard of this mash gang, who you obviously know very well.
Speaker 2:So anyway, I sort of did my research, looked it up kind of, kind of, sort of looked at what they were doing. I was like kind of hard to sort of tell what they're doing, how they go about this. It looks like they're not. They don't have a, they're just doing alcohol-free beers. You know they've got a couple of skews. Doesn't look like I can't see that they've got a brewery or production or anything like that. I'm kind of interested to know how this working. Anyway, I found jordan on linkedin, reached out to him, sent him a message, just said what I was looking to do and said you know, would, would you, would you have some time for a chat? Can I pick your brains? He's like yeah, sure thing. So jumped on a call with him, had a chat together, sort of told him what I was planning to do and the idea of got you know, asked him about what he's doing, how they go about doing it. You know he'd done some um, done some development work for a couple of other brands in the past. I said, well, would you be up for helping me? And he's like I'm kind of at a stage where I don't need to do that sort of freelance stuff anymore for other brands because ours is kind of at that point where it's about to go stratospheric. And of course it did do after that. But he said, actually I really like the sound of what you're doing, I really buy into your idea and, yeah, let's have a chat, let's have a look at that.
Speaker 2:And so started working on that kind of the product, the liquid, with Jordan and and and you know, really grateful for his help to to kind of get that get that done. And he obviously pointed in the direction of production partners and things like that. So you know I didn't have half a million quid down the sofa to set up my own brewery, so you know, went down the route of contract brewing and then you know, worked with a found a local kind of brand marketeer, brand kind of development guy who was freelance, so that saved costs. So worked with him on the sort of really iterative process around creating the brand itself, the mission, the values, what it all stood for, or started to pull all that together. Um, and then got to the point where it was may 23 when we officially launched, went to market and got the product out there.
Speaker 2:You know I'd sort of in the background, started building sort of socials obviously done.
Speaker 2:The website again got help from externally from that. So the things that I wasn't skilled at, I would I outsourced, but you know, from a project, you know I was project managing it myself, the whole thing, um, and so that was really rewarding to go through that process and, and you know and again this goes back to this sort of limiting belief stuff which you know, previously I'd had all these limiting beliefs, whereas, you know, I do testament to my sobriety and the clarity and focus and, you know, belief and confidence that you know, willingness to experiment with things that you don't know if it's going to be right or not, testament to the journey of sobriety, really for me, and you know, I think that fear of failure fundamentally flips to a fear of missing out on something that could be really cool, you know, and not trying something which could be awesome. So that then launched in yeah, so it launched Monoskew in May 2023. It launched monoskew um in may 2023 and then the next nine, eight months, seven, eight, nine months was a bit of a whirlwind really.
Speaker 2:Again, everything myself and and, in hindsight, one of the mistakes that I made was was trying to do it all myself, um, and and trying to do too many things, like we just talked about before this yeah, I was gonna say we're talking about overstretching ourselves, trying to do too much yeah, and and layering lots, of, lots of expectations on myself false expectations, I think you know believing that I could go multi-channel by myself from word go, which is a, you know, a tough cookie to crap, um, you know, not not investing in the right things at the right time, spending money and it was. It was my own investment, it was my own money that went into in the first place. I didn't take any external investment, I didn't crowdfund or anything like that. I had a chunk of money that we'd remortgaged the house and I thought this is what I'm going to put into it and, you know, and I felt that that was enough to to get it going to a place where it would be trading enough for me to take sort of a minimal amount of salary out. And you know, and it was everything you know, it was doing podcasts, it was doing trade shows, it was doing local farms markets, it was D2C plus on trade plus, like independent retail plus, trying to start conversations with with malts as well with with grocers, using some of my network for that. And it was just too much and I was just trying to do too many things. You know, too too soon, too much, too soon, and and I kind of became a cropper really.
Speaker 2:So end of 23, beginning of 24, this time last year, I was pretty burnt out. I'm not gonna lie to you. Like I, I kept on getting styes in my eye, which was now I can look back and realize it was a sign of stress and I was just, I was burnt out and also, at the same time, through this period as well, my running. So I've always been, for 15, 16, 17 years, been a, been a runner, done a few marathons, and then it was when I'd stopped drinking really, and through covid actually, when I used my hourly hours a day exercise, when you're allowed out of your pen to go and experience the rest of the world um, it was that I used that for for an hour of running pretty much every day for a year and a half, whatever it was. So then, layer that um foundation on top of, you know, being alcohol free, you know, giving me that, that energy, that time, that focus, early mornings, you know, and that's when my running started to really, you know, take off a little bit in terms of you know what I was able to achieve and I got into running ultra marathons.
Speaker 2:So, beyond marathons and trail running and all this kind of stuff and found communities, um, but at the same time as launching the beer I, I was also training, for I think I did three ultra marathons in the first six months of 2023, which was when I was creating and launching Clean Break and then continued to train really hard and just again a prime example of doing too much at once just totally burnt out. I was the opposite of what I'd created. You know, this world, this universe, which was the opposite of what I'd set out to do in the first place. You know, kind of create a more balanced lifestyle and, and you know, spending, you know, perhaps a bit more, not necessarily more time with my family, but more flexibly around, you know, taking the kids to school and things like that and it just wasn't happening. And I actually ended up you know this again this time last year in a kind of a pretty frank conversation with my coach at the time and he said you know how would it feel? Because January should have been the sort of month where Clean Break was like yeah, this is it. You know, this is make hay while it can, and it just didn't happen.
Speaker 2:And I had some challenges with production, you know, because actually it's harder than most people think it is to create decent alcohol-free beer and kegging and filtration and things like that. I just had some real challenges and January just didn't dry, january just didn't pay off for me and so I ended up pretty much this time last year, a conversation with my coach, I said look, how would it feel if you pause production on, if you stepped away from the beer for now? And at first my reaction was well, I would feel a bit ashamed. I would feel a little bit like I'd failed. You know, I hadn't. I hadn't managed to achieve what I'd set out to do and I would feel embarrassed. Because you know someone who's got 20 years experience in the drinks industry who hasn't managed to successfully bring a drink to market in the most buoyant and fastest growing category in the drinks industry. What does that look like?
Speaker 2:I sort of had to swallow that pride a little bit really, and actually when I reflected on it, the more I sort of thought about I said, well, actually it would take a big weight off my shoulders and it would give me the opportunity to to have some space to think about what was next and where I could go. Because clean break still the values and the ethos and the mission and the vision with clean break was built, not around it solely being an alcohol-free beer. Clean breaks mission is to become a global symbol for health, well-being and opportunity. So that exists whether there's a an alcohol-free beer in the system or not, and it still does to this day. I'd also in again in 2023 as a sort of a backup option, kind of almost hedging my bets. I guess I'd retrained and did a six-month diploma in coaching and positive psychology, really as self-development more than anything else. But it actually turned out to be something so much more than that really empowering experience of self-discovery, self-development and self-discipline and that kind of.
Speaker 2:Then, when this time last year when I sort of stepped, made the decision to step away from the beer, that kind of started to come back a little bit. So the coaching I started to do a bit of running coaching for people. Um, you know, free of charge. A few people reached out to me oh, I've got half marathon, will you help me train free? I was like, yeah, all right, let's do this. Set up a few little groups with friends, helped other people start to pick up their running, whether it's couch to 5k or half marathons or marathons, started to really enjoy that. Um had to go back to work part-time because I run out of money. Um joined forward leads, which is the main alcohol and drug rehabilitation center in leeds, funnily enough, and went to work for them part-time. They're a charity, so money wasn't great but but very rewarding. Worked for them as an employment specialist, but then also alongside that, started to do more along the lines of the coaching stuff and actually I was like, well, hang on a sec, like this is, this is working. I'm able to do this. This doesn't involve me creating a product, you know, it's me selling my time, which is, you know, better margin. Beer was low value, low margin, so I had to sell x, thousands number of units for it to be successful and I hadn't taken on external investment. So you know. So I was thinking, hang on a sec, maybe this is, this is the better route to go down.
Speaker 2:So I just re-evaluated and it was April, beginning of April last year, when I joined Forward Leads and I sort of said to myself right, I had to eat a bit of humble pie. I said this is just where I'm at right now in my life. It's not forever. I'll do this. It was a year-long contract. I said I'll do this for a year, I'll see out the contract, but at the same time I'll get myself to a position where at the end of that contract so april 2025 I'll be able to walk away from that job and go back full-time into clean break, whatever that looks like coaching or beer, whatever it is. Um, and then I carried on doing fleshing out the coaching side of things. Um, met my business partner halfway through last year, who I now work with on podcasts and on the coaching side of the business, and in at the end of january this year. You know I'm really pleased to say that I was able to step away from that sort of two months before I'd originally intended to, and so now I'm where I found myself. Now I'm, I'm full-time back in clean break.
Speaker 2:But really clean break now exists with coaching. It's all about helping other people make positive progress in their life and the beer is on pause. People are like, oh yeah, what happened to the beer? It's like, well, it's just on pause, it's just shelved for now. You know that I can flick a switch and turn it back on whenever I want. I've got the contacts, I've got the know-how. I've got the contacts, I've got the know-how, I've got all the process, I've got the fundamentals of it and I will go back to it at some point. But it needs to be when the timing's right. And right now the timing's not right because I'm getting huge reward and satisfaction out of coaching and it's just a more viable income option as well at the moment.
Speaker 2:And I think actually what we're doing is between me and Andy. Now we're creating the Clean Break community, which is essentially building a community of like-minded people who want to make positive progress in their lives, want to work on the three pillars of Clean Break and what Clean Break stands for, which is mindset, movement and lifestyle. How can we help people do that? For which is mindset, movement and lifestyle. How can we help people do that? Reframe negative thought patterns, remove limiting beliefs, help people create a sustainable and consistent movement routine in their week and then also lifestyle, help people reframe their relationship with alcohol. You know whatever that looks like if it's a short-term, long-term tactical break, whatever that is and use my experience to do that.
Speaker 2:And andy and I are my business partner, we're very similar journeys, so we really get on really well.
Speaker 2:We're both just regular guys who have found the ability to run long distances and get huge satisfaction out of doing that. And then I think if we can create the community around what we're doing now and probably in hindsight what I look back and think realize I probably should have done with the beer in the first instance is create that, this idea of a thousand loyal followers you create like get a thousand loyal fans and then launch a product you know and say, well, look, creating an alcohol-free beer brand under the clean break brand, we're going to crowdfund it. You know you've all got the first dibs at investing in that and let's say, each of those a hundred, a thousand people agree to invest a hundred quid, that's a hundred thousand pounds before you even launch of crowdfunded equity, that comes in and gives you the basis to be able to to hopefully succeed at doing it. So that's the sort of intention. That's the sort of intention, that's the kind of roadmap really, of what 2025 looks like, and at some point the beer will come back.
Speaker 1:It's interesting, isn't it, when you start something and you think, oh, it's going to look like this, and you get so set in, that's what this is going to be, and you kind of ignore the not necessarily the obvious thing, but you'll ignore what the signs are suggesting. It's like go into this, go into this. So, in terms of, like the coaching and all of that sort of, all of that side of things, it seems like that is where your kind of passion for, for it lay, because, after all, that's that was why you stepped away from the hospitality industry to do something that felt rewarding and that kind of aligned with your beliefs.
Speaker 1:So I think, like I've looked into doing a beer release and five minutes of research was enough for me to go fuck.
Speaker 1:no, like that is so much more than if, because all you, all you see, is like oh, booming market yeah but like it is a booming market but so many people have already got eggs in baskets like you know it's it's it's still fucking difficult to break. So to have got, you know, to got, to have got to the point to actually have a product available which I know was a bloody good beer, I didn't know Jordan had been involved. He's been involved with pretty much fucking everything, so it doesn't surprise me. But yeah, it's a wild scene out there, so you know if and when it does come back, you know people will be ready for it. But it's just really great that you've actually gone. No, I'm going to put my energy into this. That's more rewarding, both financially and kind of mentally for yourself.
Speaker 1:I think that's a really positive thing and, if anything, that sums up what Clean Break is all about. Right, it's actually let's take a little bit of a hit on this, be that a bit of a hit to the, to the ego or whatever you want to call it, but let's re-evaluate and put our energies into this thing. That's actually still really positive and really great, like you've summed up the brand just by by doing that.
Speaker 2:Really yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Yeah, and I think that's that's one of been. One of the most rewarding things about the journey is is, you know, being able to sort of reframe what I've done and see it as you know, when we have goals and objectives, we are essentially either successful or unsuccessful at achieving them. And I think, moving away from this kind of idea of failure and labeling things as failure it's like you only fail if you stop trying. And I haven't stopped trying. I just wasn't successful at doing the thing that I set out to do in the first instance. But being able to adapt and pivot your goals and objectives to still move forward into growth, I think is really important. As a founder, as an entrepreneur, you've got to have this willingness to accept when something hasn't been successful, no, hold on to it for so long that it's gonna completely drain you and will end up leading to failure, but accept that and then pivot and and and you know, rethink, take a bit of time out, step away from it and just think right, how can we continue to move this forward? And that's been a really you know, really important part of the process and something that I've learned in that journey. And, yeah, you're absolutely right, it does what I'm doing now. It very, very much aligns with the values of clean break and, yeah, you're right, it is that, as as buoyant as the alcohol free market is and as much as you know, the growth is definitely there. It is from a low base, let's be honest, and and you know the reality of it, yes, there will be some people who do what I've done and will succeed, but I think the reality of it is is that there are really well capitalized brands out there that started early doors, that have got a large chunk of distribution and existing volume and brand equity and volume share, who, ultimately, the reality is I don't think any of them are really making any profit, any money. They've just got a lot of investment and they're just able to to put that investment into growing volume, because ultimately, what they want to do is they want to flip brand and they want to sell it. You know that's what the shareholder value is. You know people haven't. You know the venture capitalists and the investors haven't invested in those brands to not see a return on their investment. And the return on their investment is realized when a major brewer comes in and says, oh great, yeah, we'll buy that brand, you know, just in the same way that, like you know, a diageo did with casamigos, for example, or you know whoever it is, you know any any startup brand. Ultimately in the drinks industry, they're looking to grow the brand and hopefully get it to a place where a bigger company will buy it, and that's fine, that that's. That's just a good, you know, sound business model to have.
Speaker 2:But I think the alcohol-free space is quite condensed at the moment. I don't want to say it's saturated, definitely not saturated. It's not over, spilling out the edges. Alcoholic beer recognizes the importance and the value of the alcohol-free category in their own brand identity and continued growth. So they're all doing it. They have the advantage of having production in-house, whereas a lot of the independent alcohol-free producers haven't like myself, didn't have the capital to be able to set up their own brewery.
Speaker 2:Yes, there's a few of them. You know the, the likes of jump ship and um um, drop bear, and, and and those kind of guys who you know will continue nirvana, who continue to do great things and and have that flexibility to be able to brew their own beer. The vast majority of people doing it are contracts, contract brewing, you know, and getting production done externally, and that comes with an additional tranche of margin that you have to offset to to that production team. And and the complexities, people don't appreciate the complexities. People always say, like, like you know, some of these alcohol-free beers are great these days, but but they're so bloody expensive. It's like well, yeah, you just stop putting the value solely on the alcohol.
Speaker 2:Yes, alcohol has tax aligned to it, but alcohol is a natural preservative. So the minute you remove the alcohol you leave the liquid open to spoilage. So to protect the integrity of the liquid, you've got to do other things to that liquid which the alcohol producers don't have to do. So whether that's st stealth, filtration or whether it's pasteurization, those processes take additional time and effort and money, you know. And also, when you you know, without the alcohol, alcohol carries not a bit of flavor, but predominantly it's mouth feel, as I think that alcohol carries, which you know, not so much for beer but certainly for wines and spirits. You have to find a way of replicating that mouthfeel for it to be an experience that people kind of almost have the perception of, that experience that alcohol gives them. And so things like Bativo do that really well. Yes, it's got that amazing mouthfeel to it and there's a few other spirit alternatives on the market that do it really well.
Speaker 2:But then you take a bottle of blue. Any blue label brands um, analog alcohol, free variation of their best-selling gin. You know gordon's tankray, whatever it might be, it is a very watery, similarly flavored version of the of the gin, you know, and it's not a particularly great experience. It always feels a bit underwhelming. Whereas you get a can of Mash Gang or a can of we Can Be Friends or you know any other really good quality alcohol-free beer, you feel like you're having a beer, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, completely.
Speaker 2:Your experience isn't at all hindered by the lack of the alcohol. If it is, or your perception of it, of your experience is, then that's probably a good sign that you may have a problem with alcohol. Do you know what I mean? So there's a lot of things that that happens in the production process and then and then. For me personally, you know it was everything. It was I was, I was production, I was logistics, I was finance, I was marketing, I was sales, I was, I was everything.
Speaker 1:It was just so hard to try and juggle, spin all those plates at once yeah, it's a big bloody task, um, but I'm glad that you've found a good kind of place with where you want to take things. It sounds like you've got a very exciting year ahead of you and I really can't wait to see what comes up for you, because it's been, as you say, it's been a lot of years in the making this, so it's a very exciting time. Thank you very much, rich, for coming to talk to me today. As I say, I'm really looking forward to seeing where clean break goes going forward, and I know I'll be uh keeping a keen eye on it in case that beer ever does uh come back you'll.
Speaker 2:You'll be the first, one of the first for you to have those early day samples.
Speaker 1:Ben, don't you worry about that can I just say, first and foremost, what an exceptional human being that man is. It was a pleasure to have rich on this week's episode of the sober boozers club podcast. My name is ben gibbs. You can find me on all the socials at sober boozers club. If you like what they're doing over a clean break, if it sounds good to you, check them out on Instagram. It's takeacleanbreak one word For now. You take care.