The Non-Drinking Beer Drinkers

We bring together a rare group chat of non-drinking beer drinkers and trace how alcohol-free beer goes from grim early options to a modern craft scene worth getting excited about. We talk honestly about sobriety, accidents, pubs, and why this drink ends up meaning connection, freedom, and belonging for so many of us. 
• meeting the panel and the many paths away from alcohol 
• first alcohol-free beers and why early options put people off 
• the jump from “good enough” to genuinely great craft alcohol-free beer 
• draft pints and the ritual of going out without booze 
• collecting beers and turning drinking into a hobby without the hangover 
• accidental alcohol in sobriety and the anxiety it can trigger 
• packaging and shelf placement that can confuse ABV and choice 
• palate changes and why full-strength beer can taste harsh later 
• the physical side of alcohol-free nights including dehydration and sugar 
• what alcohol-free beer means to us: connection, freedom, relaxation, identity 
• pubs and hospitality: better choice keeps groups together for longer 
You can find me on all the socials at Sober Boozers Club 

To find out more about the wonderful world of alcohol free beer and to check in with me head to www.instagram.com/sober_boozers_club

This episode is Sponsored by Chance Clean Cider.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:02

Welcome to season three of the podcast. My name is Ben Gibbs. I'm an alcoholic and beer commentator, and this is a very special season because this season we're not gonna be releasing weekly episodes. No no no, we're gonna be releasing special one off episodes every now again, talking to members of the non-drinking beer drinking community. Now that sounds like quite a huge field, and that's because quite frankly, it is. So I thought to start this. Rather than focusing on one person, we should talk to a whole bloody group. Well, well, well, would you look at this unlikely lot? How are we all?

SPEAKER_07 0:45

We go good, we go good.

Meet The Non-Drinking Beer Drinkers

SPEAKER_03 0:47

You contest me. This might be the the largest collective group of I'm gonna say non-drinking drinkers, but I actually don't know if everybody is off the source here completely. I I think we all are, but um I'm gonna assume we all are. But I think this is the biggest recorded session of people like us that that drink beer but don't really drink alcohol that has ever been done. So this is this is nice. Yeah, cheers for having this, mate. It's really special. It makes sense, doesn't it? Because we we have all bonded through beer, which is something that when I stopped drinking booze, I didn't think that was going to happen. So I think it would be nice, so I don't have to to be honest, to get everybody to introduce themselves and and tell me what what the fuck you do.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Go on then, who's going first? I'll go first. Go on then.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Just in case we don't get cut out of the episode, so I thought I'd just go. Yeah. So um I'm Morgan. I'm a pharmacist and I'm originally from Swansea, but I live in the Lincolnshire area and I love alcohol-free beer.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

My name's Henry Beercock. I'm from Hull. Uh I've been following Ben for a while now, and since then it's really opening my eyes to uh all the different alcohol-free options, and I've run a group called Alcohol Free, uh, which is all about choice in pubs and other venues. Basically, trying to get the message out there that Bex Blue isn't a choice. Go on out to the bottom.

SPEAKER_05 2:14

Well, I'll go. I'm Neil. I'm a warehouse manager. I live in the high peak. I'm close to Manchester, kind of been sober for two years and four months now. So just want to say hello to you all.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

Yeah. Hi folks. My name's Louis. I I'm I'm from Ramsbottom in North Manchester, uh, or East Lancashire, depending on who you ask. Uh I've been sober for four and a half years now, I think, coming up to five years. You might know me as the sober sloth. I spend a lot of my time um hiding behind a stuffed um a stuffed teddy bear, which uh my therapist is aware of. Okay, it's not that taboo a thing anymore. But yeah, similar to Henry, I'm I'm I'm here to kind of show show the world that there's more to alcohol free than Bex Blue. I can't stand the stuff.

SPEAKER_03 2:57

So you're you're like the official spokesperson for the sloth. The sloth couldn't be here today, so he sent in, you know, he sent him the spokesperson.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

He had um he had other things going on, but yeah, he's um I'm I'm I'm here to task on the message from him.

SPEAKER_04 3:09

If I can, I'll interrupt the sloth, although the sloth is I'm somewhat a big fan. I'm Tom, but everyone calls me Kronk because I've got a distinctive last name, so no one calls me Tom. I have been a fan of craft beer since I started drinking when I was 18. And then in 2023, I crashed my road bike, have no idea how it happened, coma, traumatic brain injury, told I shouldn't drink anymore. So I come at it from the medical angle, but have kind of like a deep love of the branding, the making, the marketing, everything to I can't help but think about and talk about all the time. So yeah, that's my angle at all of this. And I try my best to get my mates who still drink as much as we used to, to at least have the odd one. And slowly but surely I'm winning them all over.

SPEAKER_06 3:56

I'm uh Richard Gray, otherwise goes sumo juice. I am a graphic designer. I've obviously have worked in this sphere on beer labels, and most notably for Mash Gang pre-sale. Um but obviously I do other bits for uh Brass Castle and Vault City, quite a lot of the Vault Cities after after the Mash Gang, uh, but not doing those anymore at the moment because they've now uh hide in-house, which is a shame. But yeah, I so I've kind of come from that front view. Uh but I was in terms of my own journey, I was probably just on the sliding scale downwards, just you know, moderating lower and lower ABVs, less of it. And so I kind of count it as I quite quit alcohol, really. And haven't so it's not really a kind of oh, am I sobriotus, am I not? Sobrietus, is that even a word? I kind of go with the sense of I might have a drink one day, yeah, it would be fine. But I probably won't. So yeah, I've just sort of kind of sit down and think, so I've kind of represent that kind of the angle of just having arrived at a place where I'm like I, you know, not having gone through an addiction journey or a medical journey or anything. I've just actually just kind of got to a point and gone, alcohol doesn't really serve me anymore. You know, finding that actually as you reduced it down, you find yourself going, actually, one beer really does actually make me quite fuzzy in the head. And even though it won't give me a hangover, I'll still wake up in the night and be like, actually, this isn't this isn't great for me anymore.

SPEAKER_03 5:20

So you've basically completed, you know, what the the dream that most people in active addiction did, but completely nonchalantly.

SPEAKER_06 5:27

Yeah, I mean completed alcohol. That's what it was uh that you were going for. Yeah, you've completed alcohol, well done. You've reached the boss level.

First Alcohol-Free Beers And Early Disgust

SPEAKER_03 5:35

It was me for fucking years being like, oh, maybe one day, maybe one day I'll be able to drink like a normal person. Whereas you're over here just like, I'm just gonna leave this now, and that's fine. Do you um do you guys remember your first alcohol free beer? And I'm not talking like the first one that you had after, you know, it got good. Do you remember your first ever alcohol-free beer and and what that was? What what was it going to Emory?

SPEAKER_02 5:59

I I remember mine because I've already mentioned it, and it was when I did dry jan back in 2014, and the only options, and I mean the only was Bex Blue. And I remember being going out in a club because I was designated driver and hating every single minute of it because I just felt like everyone was obviously getting progressively more pissed, and I'm here with this disgusting physiochemical bottle. It was just the worst, and I was in such a bad mood, and that kind of planted the seed of me thinking I could never stop drinking because if this is what I've got, I'm fucked.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

You go, Richard, I'll follow.

SPEAKER_06 6:34

Um okay. I think mine was the big drop collaboration with Tiny Rebel. It was either that one, it was either that one, or because I there was that one, or I know there was a big drop that they released, and it was went into a a beer bod's box way back in the day. And I remember spotting it when the box came out and saying being like But yeah, it was between those two because I think I think it that was also a big drop. But yeah, the big drop in the Tiny Rebel was an interesting one because of course Tiny Rebel were known for going up and down the scale. And obviously that their relationship with alcohol-free beer has been troubled, let's say. I mean, they have really embraced it one year, uh to only completely shun it the next year, and have never really kind of come back to that to the scene. Having done some quite good beers in the very early days, pre-mash gang, pre-pandemic, pre-all that, and doing some quite decent um so it's a shame they've only really got kind of the one, occasionally another one going. But yeah, it was um a lot of people you could see people online going like, is this supposed to be 10.5? Is it 10.5 style? Is that what it is? And they're going, no, no, we haven't, we haven't cocked up. This is a 0.5% style. Um and I did, you know, I think probably went through all the normal things of going, is it a bit bit thin? Um or whatever, but not I'm actually really enjoying it and going, actually, this is and this stout's not really my style. It's not of I I embrace them more as a you know, as I've with alcohol free, ironically, more than I ever did with when I was drinking ABV. Probably the same with lager, in fact, actually, although I did have a bit of a more of a a thing for lager before I kind of get gave I gave up, which is I guess I mean that's why it gives me that perspective to be able to see uh actually how close these beers are now getting, because it kind of it's all that sort of experience that only we've all had if you've all had beers, especially uh you, Tom, where you've had a lot of um you know craft beers on your way, on your way through, you you know what you're looking for, and you can kind of compare a lot of these ones, especially when these these breweries like Verdant and Track and all these are doing full uh diff versions of their ABV uh you know headliners, if you like, the likes of the Chubbles and the uh whatever, you can kind of go, Oh, actually that is getting pretty darn close now.

SPEAKER_04 8:46

You've taken all my talking points right out of my mouth. Sorry, it's it's bang on. It's like I've I've seen the sunlit uplands, right? I know how good it can be. I know like the quality and the craft and the brilliance of it. And the first beers I had when I let's just say woke up out of the coma because it's much more like you know, dramatically impactful, were I was like, fuck, these are disappointing because I was bought brilliantly by some friends. If someone sent me a care package of 24 beers, and they were the 24 most boring beers, and it was all the kind of mass market stuff, and I've also got this lined up, which is the best supermarket beer in my opinion, the Australia. But so that would have been the heady heights, and then as my taste buds, and I'm convinced I don't want to go off on one here, as you might work out. I could talk for a while on this. I'm convinced my taste buds have morphed over time and I've I've changed, but fundamentally I still know how good track could be, which is why in our group chat I get so excited when Sans comes out and I'm like, holy shit, we're getting there, and I'm so excited. And also the other thing, while I've got the mic before I drop past the conch onto the sloth, it's I have this obsession with collecting them, right? So I don't buy crates of the things, I don't buy 12 at once. I buy, as the sloth will attest, I buy one of everything, and then if I go back to it, it's a very kind of hallowed thing because I haven't got endless pots of money, you know, 50 quid a month's quite a lot of money to spend. So I'm collecting them in that sense, in the same way that I used to collect beer, which in hindsight is I was drinking too much beer. But I don't come at it from an addiction point of view, I come at it from a you know, the curtain drew across it and it was all quite sudden. So it's like off I go on my next adventure.

SPEAKER_03 10:24

But I cut across the sloth, so please. So yeah, Mr. Sloth, we were discussing first ever alcohol-free beer. Tell me yours wasn't Pex Blue.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Imagine if it was. It would be so ironic. Uh Varia was mine, uh, which is still it's still widely available, isn't it? And I've not really enough. I it was yes, it was my first one. It was probably back in about 2014, 2015. It was like when I was when I'd finished uni and I'd moved back in with my mum and kind of uh things had just stagnated a bit in life, you know, just kind of trying to figure out my next steps. And I was I was uh I was very bored a lot of the time and I was also drinking a lot a lot of the time. But because I was living at my mum's um in you know relatively close quarters, it felt very um uncomfortable for me to be drinking the amount I wanted to be drinking um each and every night, uh, and also having to get up to go to work the next day as well. So um, yeah, I've discovered um Bavaria in uh in Tesco, they're like the six pack of cans. I don't know if they're still doing cans, um I've not had it for a long, long time. But yeah, I really got on board with it. Um and it was purely from a it was it was purely from a kind of like just a kind of compulsion to want to be drinking something at night. I don't remember whether or not it tasted good or if it was absolutely shite. I can't remember. I'm I'm sure it absolutely does not compare to to what we have access to nowadays, but it was just I just needed something to drink that kind of represented beer to me, because otherwise I got a bit edgy, and I probably should have realised at the time that that was a problem. Um, because it wasn't like I say, it wasn't until 2021 that I finally kind of kicked it. Um but I just I never kind of saw it as a problem, and I just because I was drinking Bavaria, I kind of felt like that balanced out of the the drinking of the of the full ABVs. Uh but yeah, I could easily could easily sink six of them on a on a weeknight and get through you know 30 or 40 in a week and then match that with full ABV beers at the weekend. Um but yeah, so I've always always have a soft spot for Bavaria, so I need to get back into it and see what it um what it actually tastes like now. But yeah, big fan of that.

SPEAKER_03 12:16

Yeah, I I have this with those kind of beers that you may have tried years ago. And then like Budvar is one for me. I can remember drinking it a long time ago and thinking it's not all that. And then I had it on tap. It was actually with with Mr. Beercock at the uh Great British Beer Festival. And I quite enjoyed it. And I was like, shit. And it goes back to to what Tom was saying. Like, have my taste buds changed? And I mean, they definitely have, but equally, has the recipe changed? Because I know they're doing a rebrand, aren't they? And I don't know if they're tweaking the recipe or not. I think we were talking about it earlier on.

SPEAKER_06 12:51

We were. I mean, I think also the draft experience does elevate, just elevates every bit. I mean, I feel I every single time Neil's like, I'm just going off into Manchester, and I'm like, I was about to throw to Neil about that.

SPEAKER_03 13:04

I was like, speaking of draft because Neil.

SPEAKER_06 13:06

I mean, yeah, Neil is Mr. You you you do I mean, obviously Manchester has an enviable amount of draft.

SPEAKER_05 13:13

Yeah, yeah, it's fantastic down there. So I I'm probably going in tomorrow as well, so I've got a day off work, so yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:20

I nearly came in today to Manchester because my my partner had to go for work, and it was like, oh, should I just come with you just to go and get pints? And then it was the thought of and that that's how pathetic I am with this and how I'm still I still drink like an addict because it was the thought of getting on a train to Manchester at seven this morning just to go and sink pints. It was like, yeah, I could do that. Absolutely yeah, that sounds like a really good thing to do. No, no, don't do that. That's silly. Like you can go all the way to Manchester, spend however much on a train, be absolutely shattered just to sit and drink beer. But that is that's still the level of drinker that I am. It just doesn't have booze. Uh but Neil, what was what was your first alcohol-free beer? On tap, actually. On tap, what was your first? And then what would your first have been before?

SPEAKER_05 14:07

I think on tap, my first one would be I can't really remember.

SPEAKER_03 14:11

Possibly Lucky Saint, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05 14:14

No, it's probably uh uh Brulo, I think I'd oh uh I think I'd they had Brulo beer on in uh Hinterla Hinterland in Manchester. It's like I'd just I'd just become sober and I think the first time I'd gone into Manchester sober and I'd heard about them opening this Hinterland bar, it's a sober bar. And uh you know it was just it was just before the opening. They they'd kind of just opened the doors. It was before they had the proper launch and I was just there at dinner time and we're walking past and uh decided to go in for a pint until I think it was a pint of just I'm not sure which brewer it was. It might have been the just the lust for life, I think. But they they just got it on and yeah, that was that was the first tap beer that I had. I think my first non-alcoholic beer in the was been when I was about seven or eight years old and standing outside a pub in the the village where I used to live and I think it was caliber. A bottle of caliber and a packet of hedgehog flavoured crisps, I think it was in the late 70s, early eighties.

SPEAKER_03 15:17

But you know Do you know I wish I could try caliber? Genuinely. I I mean that sincerely because I I I've heard such terrible things, but I just want to drink it. Yeah, I think it should be available. I think they should bring it back. I genuinely think it would be such a statement to just bring caliber back. I mean, there's a certain recipe or like just as bad. Well, they've give they've done Rockshaw, haven't they? Well, you incarnate it. If Guinness will release Rockshaw, why not do it?

SPEAKER_06 15:47

I mean Rockshaw is probably just using the caliber recipe, isn't it? I mean, who knows?

SPEAKER_04 15:51

You should do an ad read for Rockshaw for the for the podcast.

SPEAKER_05 15:54

I was about eight years old, so it tasted great. But yeah, I mean I think I think the first craft beer after I stopped drinking, oh it was while I was still drinking. I think uh it was a low tide and exhale brewery lemongrass pale ale, I think. I thought I won a I won a box of uh box of beers on a raffle thing at on online on Instagram and I I was still drinking craft beers, but but there was just the the lemongrass beer and the the exhale and low tide. Well it was low tide now it's blue bro, below brew, isn't it? But yeah, that was that kind of changed my mind. I thought all beers, all non-alcoholic at the time I was drinking, I thought all non-alcoholic beers, no flavour, thought they were disgusting, you know, like like the Bex Blue kind of thing. I've never actually drunk it, but I'd seen people drinking it. But yeah, no, that was the the first drink, first non-alcoholic brew that I had, and it it changed my mind on it a bit. And so starting off sober, I had a little starting point. It was a it was a few weeks before I started getting sober, so that was a good starting point that actually something could be okay, but yeah, that was my first one.

SPEAKER_03 16:57

And Morgan, you're you're nodding away enthusiastically there. Do you do you recall your first kind of moment where you went, Yeah, this is really good.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

So I remember the first like I remember when I stopped drinking was because it was like lockdown and things, and then basically pharmacy degrees are not for the weak of hearts. They they absolutely shaft you most of the time. Um related note.

SPEAKER_03 17:23

I don't want to say good, but also like good.

SPEAKER_01 17:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:26

I'm glad they're not piss easy.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Well, I think I think the issue was is that when I was in uni, it was like any excuse to go out, which is the which is the case for most people in uni. But it was like let's make a society just so we can get like gold card entry to every night out for free. It was it was almost like if I don't have to pay to get into the club, like then I can spend more money on the booze. So it was literally like that for like, and obviously pharmacy is like a four-year degree as well. So it was three years of solid of every Nini going out every single night, like three years in a row, like eating terribly, and then just repeating the cycle over and over again. A lot of my lecturers are probably who I now work with in the company I work for, have seen me in some absolute state coming into Union the first thing in the morning, and they still love to remind me to this day. They go, I remember that one time when I saw you and all that. Yeah, so so uh, you know, good reminder. But yeah, um first one I ever had definitely would be a Hey Lugan Zero, just because it's very widely available. I think it was the case of obviously when things started to open up again after lockdown and stuff. I hadn't been drinking for a while anyway. I think it was a bit like Henry where it's like dry jan, and then suddenly it was like, oh, this is actually like I don't miss it at all. So it was a bit like thing. It was more for the case of like, you know, liking the taste of beer, which is the same for everyone here, really, is that you know the beers are good and it's a good experience to have them and things are getting good. But um, yeah, first of all, I definitely had was Heineken Zero, and the definitely the first time I had one on tap as well was also Heineken Zero. But then for this was you mean like the blade thing? And this is a reminder to my bad life decisions. Um I used to have a David Lloyd membership and they had Heineken Zero on tap in the gym. Oh so I one day, instead of going to the gym, basically walked in and then had like a like a like a panini and then a pint of Heineken Zera and then went out.

SPEAKER_07 19:20

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

That sounds like my kind of that sounds like a good workout. Yeah, because I was like, you know, I'm paying all this money for this gym. I don't go anywhere anymore, as you can probably tell by the chins of my face, but yeah. Um but yeah, um, the amount of money I was spending to go there just wasn't going. I just thought might as well make money.

When Alcohol-Free Beer Got Truly Good

SPEAKER_03 19:36

I mean, I can't mock anyone I used to have quite an expensive gym membership, and that was because it was a a private golf club upstairs, and we all just used to do a shitload of coke. It was really nice. Yeah, not quite Heineken Zero, but that was my gym story. Could we probably leave that in, that's fine, right? But it's it's interesting, right? We talk about the last first good alcohol free beer we had, and you think, oh, it's quite a recent thing. But actually, when you think back to your first really decent alcohol-free beer, it was fucking ages ago now. Like there seems to be this narrative out there at the moment, or just this narrative that persists, but it's a very recent thing, but like, oh, alcohol free beer's actually good now. And I know we talk about this all the time in our in our private little groups, but it seems to be a lot of people are like, oh this is shocking, this stuff's good. It's like, no, when you think back to the first one that you had that was really decent, like everyone thinks back to their first. They think back to Bex Blue, they think back to Heineken, um, or they think back to I mean, if you're Richard, something actually decent. But then when when you think of what you were.

SPEAKER_06 20:39

Well, they drunk a lot of awful stuff too.

SPEAKER_03 20:42

Well, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 20:43

There was a there was a there was a that was where I started, but there was a lot of in the middle.

SPEAKER_03 20:50

When when they started to get consistently good, you know, when it became a shock if you had a really bad beer, that was bloody ages ago now, right?

SPEAKER_06 20:59

Yeah, I think I also think though that it's there's good and now we're like really good and we're just pushing it up to excellent. And it's like I mean one beer that I could going in when you were started talking about on tap. I know the first one was probably a lucky saint. I think I went down to London and was like, I can go and find a pub near where I was having a client meeting. They've got it on draft, going in and they just kind of look like what you just you know, it was just a total normal experience. But I remember my second was a pint of stoop here in York at Trebbling Madness, who don't really do draft or very or very, very rarely. Um, and I was like, this and it was nice enough to be sunny and sit out in the big, uh like at the front. And I was just like, this is absolutely the experience. This is the first time I really felt like this is absolutely like bang on, this is expensive. Yes, it might be ten in the morning. I don't care. No, it's not. It was a it wasn't quite that early in the morning. It was like but it was probably just after midday. It was, but you know, there were lots of other people kind of having a midday bike, and this is like this feels no one knows. It's that whole kind of anonymous you've just been taken a beer and you've had it. I mean I will say it it was it still tasted better in the tank because I was at the canning day for the first batch at Leeds. And I have a a particular love of dirty Leeds stoop as opposed to London stoop or Scotland stoop. And I miss stoops with with any because I do kind of wonder if stoop would now stand up to the likes of Zeus and Ghost and Rosa.

SPEAKER_03 22:26

The Czech one. Yeah, that one. Yeah, that was good. I had that um a couple of days ago. Very, very good.

SPEAKER_06 22:32

Very, very good. And obviously, and obviously Rothhouse and all the other kind of German ones that we've talked about as well.

SPEAKER_03 22:38

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 22:39

But I just don't know if it would compete. I mean, I I said at the time that is a was a lager that I could would happily drink over AB ABV, just as a lager. Just it doesn't matter. That's the one that was like, okay, now I'm start that was the that was for me, that was the the crunch point of seeing the market turn because I was like, this is actually a beer from someone who was drinking at the time, who I would actually choose that beer over an alcohol, alcohol lager.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

So I guess the thing with you, Richard, like you obviously you said you may have an A B B beer, like you know, maybe there is a chance. So whereas I feel it's been a few years now since I've had one, so I've not I've kind of forgotten what old beer tastes like or full fat beer, if you will. So I've kind of lost that as a as a gauge. So I'm really just looking at it from a completely different angle now, not comparing it to what it used to be. I'm really just enjoying it for what it is. And if I don't like it, it's not because it's not a bad beer or it doesn't compare to a full fat beer, it's just because it's just not my preference. Whereas the likes of your Bex Blues and some other just poor efforts, I look at that. I just think they're just churning it out. Whereas I think if some craft beer's gone to, you know, craft brewery's gone to the extent of making one, just because I don't like it doesn't make it mean it's not necessarily good. And I think it's um yeah, I I feel it's quite rare I come across one that I don't like, and if I don't, I just go, it's just not for me then.

SPEAKER_07 24:00

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 24:01

Yeah, I think that's that's the thing now, isn't it? It's kind of imagine being in a world where we can disagree on what beer is good when they're all decent. You know, it's it's like it's as normal as full fat beers now. You know, some people love a holster pills, I was guilty of that. Some people can't stand a Holston pills, some people love Imperial stouts, other people don't like Imperial stouts. Crossover in alcohol free now. I know but there's some really I'm I'm looking at you, Mr. Beercock, really hop heavy, like resinous bastards that just aren't for you. Whereas other people like that that's the kind of shit I want to drink. Give me the dank shit. That's all I want.

SPEAKER_02 24:39

Is that really?

SPEAKER_03 24:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:41

Nah well, this is again this is a just a field moving. I'm a dipper boy. I want dippers. Like, yeah, that's all I want.

SPEAKER_06 24:48

Look, it's Tom suffered from lupaloid threshold shift.

SPEAKER_04 24:51

A hundred percent exactly that.

SPEAKER_06 24:54

High, higher levels. But that's it. I mean, I I would say I I agree with Tom that you're I mean, that it's probably been the least a year, two year and a half since I last had an an ABV beer. So yeah, it is a it's a good period of time. It's not like it was just last last week. Yeah. So yeah, it's a it's a bit the difference is I just don't really I've never thought, oh, I'm gonna start, this is the day I'm gonna do it. It's this is monumental, I know where exactly where I was when I had my last beer. It's just that kind of somebody will go, Do you want to do you want to sip of try to try a sip of this? And I'm like, it's alright, I can pass it back. So it's it's basically I go I go go with what Tom was saying. It's that over the time I've you know, even before that, I was probably drinking probably for the year before that, probably two, three on a weekend, maybe, if I felt like it. So that the idea that you're the taste I think the markets shifted and I think the mar and and got better. And I think as you drink more uh alcohol-free beers, your palate does adjust to them. And I think that's why it goes into what Ben was saying, re-going back to those early beers and going, actually, what are they good now or and is that a recipe change, or did I just miss them on the way past because I was looking for something else? I mean, like there's there's so many what I would call under-the-radar beers that you've probab we've probably all had on the way through, but you kind of forget about them because they're only in like a limited release, or when only one retailer has them. Uh, or you just sort of, you know, they you think, oh, go on like on their website and buy some, and then you realise they've got you've got to buy them in bottles and the 12 pack, and you're like, can't be bothered. And therefore you don't, and it slips you by and you go and buy some something else.

SPEAKER_04 26:29

This is why we all piss to the sober sloth, right, to get it in. Yeah. We all just go in the group chat and go, you need to get this in, you need to get this in. It's like a personal shopping list, right? It's quite handy.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

I speak to you a lot more than I speak to my own family.

Accidental Alcohol And Label Confusion

Draft Pints Rituals And Collecting

SPEAKER_03 26:42

Yeah, I know that one. Literally, I'm glued to my phone 24-7. And but that's that's what this this thing can do. Like being being in the world of alcohol-free beer, it's it's no different to being in the in the world of beer. It can consume your life just as much. Like it's just as as valid and important. Question, and this isn't to out anyone, but whilst whilst Rich was talking, I'd a I had a thought, and it's has anyone accidentally or experimentally tasted beer with alcohol in sobriety? Yeah, do you want to go, Morgan?

SPEAKER_01 27:14

I put it in the group chat. Do you remember? I was on I was on holiday and um I was in my orca and I was really impressed because when I was in my orca, it was like you walk into a shop and there's literally like rattlers and like loads of different like types of alcohol-free beers, like, and they were like 30 cents or something, it's like cheap as anything. And you like sat on the beach with a rattler going like the San Miguel Radlers, like this is actually really good, like just so good. And then I went to uh it's quite funny, I went to meet up with my auntie who was there at the same time on a on her own holiday, and then so it was like me and my partner and my auntie sat there, and I was looking at the menu and it said Mahau 0.5, and I was like, Oh, I've not had that one yet. That's pretty cool how it's on there, I'm gonna order it. Came over in the glass, so it didn't come with the bottle, and I was like, Okay, they must have just poured it in the bottle there, whatever. And I sipped it and I sort of was like, I'd had the I'd had the same one the day before, but like the actual 0.5%, and I was a bit like this tastes slightly off, but is it because it's like on tap or something? But I couldn't really figure out what was going on, and I honestly it just shows how sensitive you've become to the alcohol when you've not had it for like four or five years. I got halfway down and my face literally like felt like it was on fire, like you know, like you get that hot head in that, and I literally was like, fucking hell, I think this has got beer in it. But then at the same time, I was also like, Oh, maybe I'm just warm, so I just kept drinking it. I just thought it's gotta be, it's like, it's gotta be a mental thing. Like, that's fine. It's because I've not seen the can, maybe right. So drunk it, and literally, like, I remember my I I like nudged my I actually texted my other half who sat opposite me and I went, Don't do that, don't panic, but I think I've had real beer. And she was like, She looked at me and she was like, You think you've had a real beer? And then I literally got up and I just remembered like it's it's actually terrible because it must be, it just shows how bad it must have been when I used to drink. The anxiety I got in that moment on a beach in my orca was fucking mental. Like you can have that. I was walking around as if like everyone knew that I'd had a beer, and I like it.

SPEAKER_07 29:24

And everyone cared.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

Yeah, and it was like, what's he gonna be for? What's he gonna be bear? What's he doing? And it lasted for like three or four, like it lasted for ages. Like, I literally remember like for like the rest of the day being like, oh my god, I've not missed this. This feels awful. And I'd booked a really nice restaurant in the evening, and I still think that like I felt quite pissed turning up, and then I felt like I was getting like a bit of a headache after I was eating, and I was like, I was like, this sucks. It was that was like literally the moment where I was like, there's not even a single chance again, I'm gonna touch that ever again. Yeah, it's and the whole reason it was wrong is because the 0.5 meant 500 mil. Nah.

SPEAKER_03 30:02

Do you know I've been caught by that with um with flotsinga color. Um I thought that that was and we talked about this, didn't we? I've ordered this twice now, the flotsinga cola, and when it's arrived, I've been like, for fuck's sake, it's three percent. You fuckers, why is this in? And I got really pissed off with uh it might have been Trembling Madness in the alcohol free section. And then I realised, or was it did you tell me it was three percent juice? Yeah, it it was the juice.

SPEAKER_02 30:35

So I I got on Google Translate and actually translated it and it's three percent juice. And but speaking of um Trembling Madness, I mean I didn't want to drop the minute, I was gonna play say a place in York. But anyway, you you you've already done it, so go ahead. Um so lovely guys. Uh but no, so basically uh I went in there and you know the Castile Tropical. So they've got their little stand in the middle of the shop where it's all the alcohol freeze, the point fives or whatever. So I picked up a Castile Tropical, bought it along with loads of others, got home. Me and my wife had it. We'd already had it before, and we we'd had it, and we would just be like, it's a bit more bitter than I remember. It tasted really almost bit just just different. Anyway, we we end up looking at the bottle, and both my wife and I are sober, and we both looked at it, and she was gutted, you know what I mean? Like she you kind of feel like you've let yourself down, but then not not having done it intentionally, it's to be like we didn't know, and also the Castile bottles, they're so similar. There is really apart from the 0.0, there is no differentiation at all, and so it was they they just put it in the wrong place. And um, you know, I spoke I spoke to them and just said, look, you know, not really kicking off, just make sure it doesn't happen again for someone else, basically, rather than you know, but it that that's my experience, but I we kind of didn't let it get us down too much, but it's it's just annoying.

SPEAKER_03 31:55

See, I'm gonna um I will I will throw to Richard straight after this, but I'm gonna you know, saying, Oh, at least we didn't do it deliberately. I have deliberately tasted beer with alcohol in sobriety because I wanted to know. Now, I didn't drink a pint, I didn't drink any volume, I had uh maybe two glugs. Um and it was fucking horrible. And I was like, oh shit. And it was, you know, I was it was it was really weird. It felt like I was gonna like, right, the safe word is this. But I was I was at a wedding, I was with my partner, and I mean it was only corona. She had a corona with alcohol, I had a corona with no alcohol, obviously. And I was just like, Do you know what? Give me your bottle. And she looked at me like, no, no, this isn't this isn't where we relapse, is it? And it was just like, no, I want to I want to see what it tastes like. After just two years in to sobriety, I've been talking about beer pretty much every day in that two years. It's like what what has happened to my taste buds? What's happened to my palate? What is this stuff like? And I had a sip and it was just chemical. That is all I got from it was just chemical burn. And it's like this is wild. It is wild how acclimatized you become to that sensation. And I wonder how many beers and this isn't really I I'm never gonna know this, but how many beers just hide behind that? Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 33:21

Hide behind the alcohol, do you mean?

SPEAKER_03 33:23

Yeah, like the kind of that that burn that you get from ethanol, from alcohol, like that is undeniably a a profile in beer.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

It's like it's like telling your body it's working, so you just you just go through it because it's like the the end result is you're getting pissed for most cases anyway.

SPEAKER_06 33:40

I've now got two points. So first point is cancel Ben. First point was going on to what I actually had this conversation with Henry actually at the weekend, which was about how close some beers can get in terms of the design. So, faith, now that they've redesigned it, uh gone from holy faith, very clearly not uh different from faith, to faith alcohol-free. The differential is literally this little tiny strip and they kind of and a bit of like it's not blue, it's like they've gone for a kind of turquoise. So it's not quite the blue strip of uh of sin. But the problem is you look at the can and you look at the box, and e every single time I've picked up the box, I've had to sit there and go. And I and I know what I'm looking for, but I look and that's for it it's worse because the Saints are my local Sainsbury's for ages had no out had no holy faith in the section while it was being turned over. So there's just an empty slot. But you'd go round to the alcohol section, and in the faith slot they had the alcohol-free faith. Well, just one box just randomly had been put on there, and I was like, I'm having that. Um and I found it there two, three times until they eventually worked out that that was what it was. So that kind of packing error, which is I guess is what may have happened to Henry, is that somebody's just gone, this is supposed to be here, that's that that's the right beer, and has just cocked up and put it in the wrong section because it's so close.

SPEAKER_03 35:00

So I do think there's gonna be My favourite thing on that is when they launch a new alcohol-free beer in supermarkets. I don't know if anyone else has noticed this, but for a for a two-week window you don't get ID'd for it. It just goes through. And then after about two weeks, all of a sudden you scan it through and it's like, oh God's sake, now I need to have an argument with the Morrisons lady.

SPEAKER_06 35:19

And then the other thing is going on to the alcohol thing, because I had this, and I think it's one of the reasons why where you well, I might Vault City might not be particularly asking me back for doing any more labels. It might just be because I mean, obviously, one of the things I was finding was uh that that they were asking for a design for certain things. So we had one of their beers was uh I think it was one of the supermarket beers, but they I never know which supermarkets it's gonna pop up in. So they did one called Jungle Juice, which was based on umbongo. Now, obviously, it's the kind of beer that they could never do in alcohol free because that would be unbongo. So there'd be no point. So that's why Vault City, a lot of them in terms of them doing alcohol free, they've got to be really careful with their profile in terms of picking something. I think they are the natural successor to um the the no motion range that Ta'ul did, if you ever came across that. So really nice, special sour beers with a mixture of fruits that could be and a lot of their beers would naturally translate as long as they are not a drink in their own right. Iron brew, for example, again, can't really do that. But yeah, uh they were doing the jungle juice and they wanted they wanted a like a higher version. And I'm like, really? But a higher version? Because it's like it was like six percent already, and they were I guess it sold well, and the same, supposedly the same supermarket was going, yeah, we'd want an 8% version. And I was like, your beers, the problem with them is is that well not the problem, it's like the the thing with your beers is you can't really taste the alcohol, they're so fruity, they're so things, they don't they kind of mask it quite well. Obviously, to our tune tastes who now don't like account or don't handle it, we can now tell that alcohol much more than anyone else. I think we could all agree. So you'd probably go that's it tastes a bit off, it tastes a bit something, but with a lot of their beers it's it's hidden. So therefore adding that extra 2% is just like that's just alcoholism, surely. That's just what you know. I mean, I I I honestly think if you could take a room and go take the same beer and go, right, here's an alcohol-free version, here's a three percent version, here's a six percent version, and here's a nine percent version, and ask people, you know, and let and let's say they all taste identical, completely identical. There will be people who will go for the nine percent purely because they're getting think they're getting more value, they're like, yeah, it's like we're going for that one.

SPEAKER_04 37:36

Do sharks like water baby sharks, and then it just goes the whole way up. Like, I was at like I went with my friends to where is it? Yeah, this is a bit where you're gonna have to jump to me getting the right name of it. Craft Metropolis, but the Brixton one. Anyway, I had some like great alcohol-free beers that day, and this is where I need to put my hand up and say, I did have like I'm not a full sobriety guy, right? I'll taste someone's dipper occasionally, so I want to kind of don't, you know, hate me for it. But in the early year, I know I'll get out, I'll leave. In the because I didn't, I fully didn't drink for a year, and then I was like, I'm gonna have a sip of someone's dipper, right? Roll the dice, you know.

SPEAKER_06 38:13

Sounds so wrong in c out context.

SPEAKER_04 38:15

I know. You feel free to clip that up if you like, but it's a very unusual sentence. The first time I did it, it'll be someone's massive like gold top track thing, and it's like super duper, eight pound a can. And I was like, holy shit, this stuff is like it's gonna blow my head off. But now, after two and a half years, like way down the line, I can I taste it again, and it doesn't have that same you some of you guys are describing as like bitterness or like the ethanol. The ethanol thing, I think it was Ben who said it, that was like being light bulb. I think I've described it to some of my friends like that is just like it's like someone's pulled vodka in it.

SPEAKER_03 38:50

It's like fluid.

SPEAKER_04 38:51

Yeah. And that's where I I can feel it feels to me like as this kind of person who's kind of drifting in the nether regions of like all this different alcohol-free little bit, try a little bit over here occasionally. I can feel the kind of the chasm closing, and I can feel people who are really into their craft bit who massively give a shit or are home brewers who are just like so into this stuff and like live and breathe it, they can see the gap closing as well. And people like everyone here on this call, like just holding the baton up, constantly preaching, is having like a real substantial change, and it's like the inner the I do marketing for a living, right? I can't help but I see it everywhere, and it's just like it makes me really excited that we're getting there, but I do think we're we get to say we're at the forefront of it, which is quite fun, right? Because we're like a little club right now, but the club's getting bigger. Um, go on then, Morgan.

SPEAKER_01 39:42

I was gonna I was gonna say, um I know it's just like I'm gonna it's just all gonna get cut anyway, so I don't know what I'm saying this far. Yeah, I was gonna say that when I when I was drinking, I wouldn't really say that I was really into like all the craft beer and things like that, and all these like keeping an eye on all these different breweries, but I would say that like since you know the sloth came around, I feel like I'm checking stuff all the time, and I it's actually quite a bit of a hobby now, which is nice. And then and Louis will know that I've had like a couple of mates and I've basically done orders for them because they've said if you think this is pretty good, then I want 20 quids worth. Do me the best thing you can, and then I always say to him, I go, I'm sending my mate's order over now, just and then whatever. And then I always tell him if there's a good review, and nine times out of ten, like people do love it, and it's it's good to kind of have like you know, a weekly check-in. It's a hobby I never thought I'd end up having, and also it's like part of my financials for the month is like I've got to get at least five in this month, yeah, but just to kind of see what's going on, and obviously, you know, I I love doing the reviews things for them as well. I find like every other day I'm taking pictures of them and then you know and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 40:49

Especially your great paws as well. What's that? Especially your awesome pause.

SPEAKER_01 40:53

Oh, isn't that you?

SPEAKER_03 40:55

God, yeah. Well, this was this was kind of why I mean I asked about the full strength test if anyone had drunk it, because I've wondered often, you know, when people come at you, which it doesn't happen so often anymore, but it still happens more than you'd like it to. And it's like, oh what's the point? It's well what's the point in you drinking your beer? Why don't you just drink vodka? You know, if the only point in something is because it gets you it gets you to a point where you want to be, it gets you nice and pissed. Just drink vodka. No, you're drinking the beer because because you prefer the taste of a beer. And when you take the ethanol out of a beer, and I don't know if there's a I don't know the right or wrong answer to this. It's just something that I'm kind of I'm trying to think about over time. It's like drinking non-alk, does that refine your palate more? I mean, I d I don't know. I honestly don't know because I I was the same. I didn't drink craft beer so much when I was a drinker. I drank I drank cheap lager, you know, and then I started to get more into craft during lockdown, and then that was when I was trying to drink craft beer and the same at the same volume as I was drinking my cheap lagers, and then that's when you know I became an alcoholic. But yeah, it it just it interests me. I I'd love love to, and I don't mean this in a this is gonna sound like people there's gonna be an intervention. I would love to drink like a normal person for one day and then return to this life, but I'd love to do it purely palette-wise. Like I wanna know what I'm not getting from alcohol-free beer, but then I wanna know what people that drink full fat beer are missing with alcohol-free beer. That's an experiment I'd like to run, but I never can because I'm I'm an alcoholic. But then a really good point came up from Morgan, the collectability side of things. Um, this is where we can we can throw to Mr. Slough and to Neil. I'm gonna I'm gonna start with with Neil because it's the ventures out to the pub. The feel like you know, it's a joke about it. Neil's special trip to Manchester to have a pint. But it is that ritual, isn't it, of going out to get a pint. It feels just really special still.

SPEAKER_05 43:05

Yeah, I mean I was I was heavily into my my craft beer when before I became sober, and I used to find myself I'd have to go somewhere where I knew there was decent beer on and like I've I've got a couple of local bars near me that used to have the constantly changing tap lists and I found myself just constantly wanting to go up there, you know what I mean? It's kind of I had to try every single beer. It became a massive problem because I'd end up going to Manchester and I could just I'd go in the morning, I'd spend the day there and then never obviously never come back at night. It was terrible. You know, you run on tapped? Yeah. Just constantly drinking I'd spend you know, I'd go from brewery to brewery to brewery to tap room to tap room, and it's just uh a bit of a nightmare really. But I now now I don't do it. It's uh I can s I can see I can it's nice to go back to the tap rooms now they've got Alcohol free on top. You know, that's that's fantastic. I never thought I'd go back into the into the track brewery or cloud war and especially Shaw Shock because they used to have such a they were so against alcohol free when I was drinking. They wouldn't even have alcohol free in the fridges really. It was uh they were that bad. But now that after the recent alcohol free they did with uh We Can Be Friends and Sam, it was it was just uh it's great to go back in there, but it's also great to remember going in there and not being wasted, if you know what I mean. It's great. I I'm I'm enjoying having it on tap, but you know, the craft beer thing was for me, it started off obviously with the brew dog thing and then it slowly I used to drink a lot when I was a kid, and then I kind of stopped and slowed down and then craft beer became like a habit for me. Like it like Morgan said, it was a hobby and the alcohol was a hobby, and I found myself getting higher and higher strength beers. Like I ended up with you know, we're drinking I had a hell of a collection of stout beers from Emperor Brewery and all like 15-16%. And you know, I kinda I I do miss that. I c I can still remember the burn, but like you say with the ethanol thing, I all I can remember out of the alcohol is the alcohol burn that I used to get all the time. But you know, I I've still I do have that obsession now. I've replaced that obsession with alcohol free because I'm I'm sitting here now next to seven seven boxes of beer on the floor next to me. You know, I cannot I don't seem to be able to get through them. I keep putting orders in for with the sloth and with the travelers.

SPEAKER_03 45:34

Yeah, so speaking of speaking of boxes of seven, how how did it all come about for this for the sober sloth? What was what was the moment that made you think like, right, there's so many bloody beers out here now, why don't I just get all of them?

Does Alcohol-Free Change Your Palate

SPEAKER_00 45:48

That was the dream. Well I was big, I was big into Pokemon when I was a kid and I like had the dream of catching them all, and I was like, well, this is the grown-up version, in it. It's um gotta try each and every one of these fucking things. No, I was I was because I started when I first started researching all of the the different beers that are out there, it's because I was sick of having VexBlue and Heineken Zero in every in every pub and bar that I went to in uh in Presswich where I was living at the time. So I was like, there's gotta be something more out there. And then, you know, a quick search on I think it was Ebrio was my first uh wholesaler. I saw about 30 or 40 different alcohol-free beers, and I was like, what the fuck? How how does no one how does no one know about this? And you know, obviously there were people like yourself, Ben, that who did know about this, but I didn't I didn't know that other people knew about this, so I was kind of thought we have to bring this to the masses, and I've got I've got I've got a lot of a lot of cupboard space in a house that I was renting at the time, so I thought why not why not fill it up with um with some alcohol-free beers? And then yeah, the collection just gradually grew. But I kind of I kind of thought like it's it's weird because when the thing the thing that I got, I used to really love drinking. Um, and it wasn't just beer, it was just alcohol, and I really loved the burn because I knew the more that it burnt, the more it was gonna fuck me up. But I used to love drinking on my own just as much as I did with other people, but now so much of the joy that I get from alcohol-free beer is is sharing in it with uh with other people. So, you know, when I get like I get messages in in our group or I get personalised messages, or people send send me emails or whatever saying that they've really enjoyed an alcohol-free beer, or we all kind of share in a new beer by we can be friends or or track or whoever it might be. And it just there's there's something indescribable about that connection that we all kind of share in that sense of community that I just for some reason I don't think exists in the same way in the craft beer or sort of the full ABV beer community. And I think it's partly because it feels like the alcohol-free stuff is made with a lot more care and a lot more attention because they don't have the alcohol, the ethanol to hide behind. They have to make something that genuinely tastes good if they want it to do well. So that's I think that's what kind of makes me feel so passionately about the alcohol-free space is that I know macro breweries aside, that they're being made really fucking well, and it just keeps getting better and better. And as people, there's more and more people that are finding it more and more enjoyable. And I've been talking for at least three minutes now, so I'll stop. Morgan's got his hand up, so it's all right.

SPEAKER_01 48:11

No, Morgan's got his hands up. It's only Morgan, I've got to get my clips in somehow. Come on. I was gonna go back to Henry's point from earlier on by saying that you know, I think part of the magic of it now is is like if you don't compare it to what you've had before and you just enjoy it for what it is, that's where it's really special. Like I said, there's no ethanol for it to hide behind. And like when I used to drink, I used to love like the L Elvis juice brew dog, just because number one, if I had a pint of it, it wouldn't really send me skywards, and then secondly, it was so grapefruity that I just like loved that taste. And then I think that now it's kind of why I enjoy loads of the fruity, alcohol-free beers, because it like reminds me of that. But like obviously, you can just have multiple ones and enjoy it and be like, oh, that's nice, that's nice, whatever. Instead of having like two and then being like, Oh god, I can't see straight or whatever, you know. Um, but yeah, and it's good to have the options from um the sloth, he's doing well, he's getting my uh money every month, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_03 49:06

I think that's that's one of the things though, isn't it? There's because there are people in in the the full fat beer world that do what we do and they do it in a very healthy way. You know, uh there's there's beer in influencers and there's beer commentators and all of this in the Fullcraft scene that that do things very well. That's that's all I'll say, you know. But it's but it's not problem drinking, it's drinking for the love of the liquid. And that exists. But then there's people like I'm not gonna say us collectively, but maybe some of us in this chat that didn't drink beer for the love of the liquid. They drank beer to get fucked up and then go on the bags in.

SPEAKER_06 49:46

You only have to say untapped. It's I mean, there's a reason why untapped was the point for me. When I when I stopped being on untapped, someone said to me, Do you do you want to collect badges or do you want to just drink what you want to drink? And I was like, Huh. And I think then I was uh after that it kind of resonated in the back of my head, and that's it. I quit. Just went, right, I'm not gonna use untapped anymore, because I know vaguely what I've drunk and what I haven't drunk and whatever. And that that for me was the point of and now I'm kind of that was the the start of the downward journey to where I was drinking less and less and less and less.

SPEAKER_03 50:17

Because alcohol-free beer seems to be taking the people like like myself that drank in volume as a problem, and it's actually then bringing that passion for the liquid into my life.

SPEAKER_06 50:29

Well, that's it. You can see some people who are very passionate in a not very healthy way for people, you know, checking in like every day. And I mean I'm I mean there was one guy in York, and you'd see him, and he'd just he would be there on his own. I played to having the confidence to do it on his own on an evening, and he'd be go to ev he would have a loop because he'd be out every night of the week. Some nights he'd be at home and he'd have a and he'd still check in on three or four beers there, but he was going out and just basically trying like he was mostly on half pints, but like you could just see him just checking in every new beer that was out, and it's that whole thing like Neil was saying, of going like checking the check the tat list, what's new, what's this going around every single new bar and just rotating round. There was never a like it was always like there was never a beer on draft that didn't get checked in. And now this was when the craft was it's before it really started to really break out in Cannes, where you still had quite a lot of releases that were going direct to pubs and not really getting into into can. Um, and then obviously now they they can quite a large most almost all of their selection. Um so you kind of don't feel that you're missing out if you're buying it at home. But I think, yeah, I just just I think just the the opinions and the attitudes towards alcohol free amongst some people on Untapped, it's just so that kind of it's like you that's where you meet the the really polarising a uh aspect to it. They're really passionate, but really passionate about just getting drunk and having large amounts of beers in all sorts of different types, and you're like, yeah, it shows there is passion, but just it's just not the right end of the spectrum, is it, Billy?

SPEAKER_04 52:02

I've gamified my AF intake in the same way that Untapped gamifies alcoholism, so you know, whatever gets you through it.

Feeling Fuzzy And The Guinness Gut

SPEAKER_03 52:09

No, I'm guilty I'm guilty of that. Because I think I feel like when when you're in this when you're outside of the beer world, you do start to look at everything a little bit more like, well that could be problematic. Well that could be problematic, and it's like you see red flags left, right, and centre. Um sometimes when there are no red flags to be seen, I I'm probably guilty of that. You know, I I've definitely diagnosed some of my friends as addicts that that probably aren't, you know. But equally, you do start to see things very, very different, don't you, when you're when you're not drinking, but you're still out in drinking environments. Like that kind of haze that seems to fog buildings and venues at about eleven o'clock. Whereas all of a sudden it's like fucking hell, this is when did this all change? Everyone kind of seems to to go into this weird like frenzy at eleven o'clock, where it's like, I don't recognise people anymore. It's so bizarre.

SPEAKER_06 53:06

Question for you, all. So have you ever had an alcohol-free drinking experience where you've maybe had, I don't know, some two, three, four, and you've come out of it and you feel like you've had uh for lack of a better word, like you've felt like you've had the almost had a full ABV experience.

SPEAKER_04 53:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 53:22

But not like that kind of like it's like a I can't think of the word I'm not I'm thinking of.

SPEAKER_03 53:27

Fuzzy. It's fuzzy.

SPEAKER_06 53:28

Just a bit. I mean, I'm I remember walking out of a pub and being like having, you know, that kind of weird like where you get hyper-focused in your vision because you feel like you if you if you if you're not concentrating on where you're walking, you're gonna fall into the road. And you kind of go into hyper-focus mode. And I was like, it's four o'clock in the afternoon, I've just only had three non-alcoholic pints. What's going on? It's still daylight. What?

SPEAKER_04 53:48

I think it's like when you walk out of the cinema and it's daylight outside and you're kind of a bit discombobulated. Yeah. Yeah. And you've been sat in a you've been sat down, maybe your mate's got a round in, and you've been sat on your ass for an hour and you've drunk two, three pints, you're dehydrated. I'm con I wanted to raise this question on top of your question, which is I'm convinced I can still get hungover off six AFs because it's not drinking water, it's too many salty snacks, not proper sleep, you know, social occasion, whatever. And I've got a different medical thing going on in the back, but I'm convinced that other people must. I hope I'm not on my own. It's just like, am I hungover? It's like, no, because you had you just had six beers last night, but they were all AF, so you can't be hungover, you're just you know, no, I do get that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:33

I sometimes wonder about sugar as well.

SPEAKER_03 54:36

Yeah, sugar, very good point.

SPEAKER_01 54:38

Yeah. It's like having like if you had like eight or nine coffees or like eight or nine teas, like you won't just be pissing like a racehorse, and then you'd be proper, like it's the it's the like the majority of the hangover is the headache, uh, is like the dehydration, isn't it? Because it like it just makes you go so much. And it's like I went to Dublin for a stag do and I had something like because obviously they're just getting the rounds in, and it was like 12 or 13 like Guinness heroes in a day. I'll tell you what, there's no alcohol in them, but it fucks your stomach up big time. I've got regular like walking around like it swells you up like nothing. No one's just mental.

SPEAKER_04 55:16

I've I've kept a catastrophic incident in a pub toilet after six AF Guinnesses. You can cut that out, but like you're not alone. I was like, holy moly, it got me going.

SPEAKER_03 55:27

I was like I when when we go when we go on holiday, if we go to like somewhere kind of out of the way in Devon, like isolated little little towns and it's only Guinness, I'll call it Guinness Roulette because it's like which one is gonna give me smelly bum, quite frankly. It's really weird. I'm glad I'm glad maybe this is all we're gonna unearth from this episode is the Guinness Zero. Really, really good. But if you drink too much of it, you will get the shit.

SPEAKER_01 55:57

I think it's the iron content as well, though, because like I iron like iron tablets, for example, they are just famous for causing stomach problems and making your stools really dark and weird and whatever.

SPEAKER_03 56:08

So they didn't put that on the surfing advert, did they?

SPEAKER_06 56:11

Now we know why we've got a pharmacist in the air tick follow tock, follow tick follow tock.

SPEAKER_03 56:17

It's just someone run into shit themselves. Why does every podcast I do end up in people talking about poo? Yeah, that's my question.

SPEAKER_01 56:26

Your poo's important, that's why.

What Alcohol-Free Beer Means To Us

SPEAKER_03 56:29

Well, I'm glad we've learned that. Um I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna wrap up in a in a sentimental way. Um and feel free not not to join in, but when was the last time you had a really firm poo? No, uh my question is what would what would you say if someone if someone let's call them Ben was to say to each of you, what does alcohol-free beer mean to you? What would it be? Go on.

SPEAKER_02 56:55

I would say um connection.

SPEAKER_07 56:58

Ooh, nice.

SPEAKER_02 56:59

It's got me connected to all of you guys when I'm out and about in different places. I feel more connected having that because I've got a clear mind and um I can actually speak to people, take in what they're saying, and actually have a decent conversation that I'm gonna remember. So I thank Alcohol Free Beer for connection.

SPEAKER_01 57:15

That's lovely. That was lovely. I would say alcohol free beer uh is basically I'd say probably saved my relationships and friendships, mainly at the moment as well, because most of my friends now live quite far away. It's usually like at least an hour or an hour and a half, depending on where we meet up. So it allows me to go and see them, have a full day of drinking and enjoying their company, which I think has like a secondhand effect, which makes you feel like you've had a few beers because you're bouncing off everyone else's energy when everyone gets a bit crazy. And then also being like, right, it's about 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock. I'll see you guys soon. Jump in the car, drive an hour and a half home, and then go to bed, and then wake up and then go, right, we're all good. Do it all over again.

SPEAKER_06 58:00

And for me, I it's relaxation, it's the ability to be to knock back, whether it's watching telly or on a podcast, that you can just sit back, have a beer, relax. It kind of breaks up the day. It's kind of that thing that it's it's that that that social marker of this is the end of the day, whether it's in a pub, whether it's at home, doesn't matter. And I can still be focused because I mean, obviously, one of the the big kind of clicks that were why I sort of dropped it out uh a couple of years you know, a year and a bit ago is because obviously um I became a dad. So that was that extra kind of impetus to do it, even though I was barely drinking up to that point anyway. It's just that kind of oh, okay, yeah, actually this if I'm gonna be awake at in like two hours or not, as the roulette of toddlers and babies will tell you, you really don't want to be going, Oh, I'm just gonna be nursing a hangover. Yeah. And you know, it's it's bad enough weight b trying to function through through yeah, t having a toddler while having just being completely tired to hell because you haven't slept, but add a hangover on top of that, and you're like, yeah, no, no. I don't this I can control, this got this I can, you know, I can, you know, work my way through, have a nice coffee or whatever, just work it slowly, well just the one just to kind of hit the edge off.

SPEAKER_00 59:14

Go next if that's all right. I think for for me, I think alcohol-free beer has given me so much freedom because I spent my life up until the point I stopped drinking hiding behind alcohol, and that very much felt like a trap. Like I wasn't I wasn't myself. I was I was kind of putting on i want it because I now have this sloth persona, but I was putting on a a different, a different I was being a different person to who I truly was, and I think that was preventing me from um from achieving what I wanted to achieve, from having the relationships I wanted to have and connecting in the way that I wanted to connect. So for me, it yeah, it's just it gave me that sense of sense of freedom that I'd I'd I just I I I wouldn't have otherwise. I'd just be a kind of a in a in a in a prison of vodka and rum and gin and and full fat beer and it would be uh horrendous. So I can't I can't thank alcohol free beer enough for for for what it's done for for me and for you know so many of us as well.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:09

I'll clap, then I'll put my hand up. That was a great work. I'm gonna do one big clap at the end for everything. Do one big clap. I think some of you guys have really been really eloquent there, which is quite a tricky act to follow. But mine I'm really keen to not come across as quite in any way self-centered here, but you know, I am the centre of my own universe, so I'll say whatever and what it means to me. But the craft beer scene with my friends was such a big chunk of my personality before I whacked my head and went into the coma and everything. So the ability I often say that we're at the zeitgeist, we're at like the crescendo of alcohol-free beer, but we we're only getting better. Every time I say that next month gets better. But what it allowed me to do was maintain my lifestyle and maintain my personality and maintain my friendships. So it's a lot of what Henry said, it's a connection, right? Really, fundamentally. So it's uh and it does it genuinely makes me quite emotional talking about it because when I woke up and the I was awake for five days on hot in hospital and I thought my world was coming to an end, like it was terrifying in all sorts of interesting and wacky ways. I thought that was my social life out the window. I thought that was everything gone, and I was gonna have to learn to be me again and learn to do all sorts of other things in my life that I hadn't quite grasped, and then it was like alcohol-free beer was on the up, and I got to ride the wave of it. So, you know, it can't for my own mental health go down, otherwise we're all fucked. So it has to keep getting better, and it is keep it does keep getting better. And every year I I look back on it and I'm like, Christ, that year was better than the year before.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:38

So no pressure, Sam.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:40

I know. I have actually I did have a word with him. I did I've met him once or something, you know. You do actually keep have to keep this up. But that is what it means to me, is it kind of it's a big chunk of my personality, right? It's a hobby. Someone mentioned Pokemon earlier. Great weight. Yes, okay. So yeah, so that was it. It's like I I see these little beer cans in much the same way, though. My little shiny card of sands here, like that's what it means to me anyway.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:07

Amazing, mate. Well done. That's good. That's lovely. And we've got one more left.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:11

Yeah, I'll go. Um, I think alcohol-free beer is it's allowed me to carry on my obsession with uh trying just keep trying many different beers. You know, I I've never drank socially. I always I was always alone. I'd go out drinking alone, I still do. And it allows me to to keep going out and having finding my little adventures. I'm I'm quite an obsessive person, kind of uh I collect vinyl, I and I collect beer. I always collect beer. I've just tried as many different beers as I can. And it's allowed me to just keep going and going. I didn't think I'd ever didn't think I'd be able to carry on after once I started getting sober. But it allows me to just carry on my a little my little obsession and just meeting you guys, if you know what I mean. I was never I've I've I'm talking to you guys, I've never I've I was never talking to any other craft beer people when I was drinking, so this has kind of opened me up a bit since I've been sober and alcohol kind of pushed me into myself and I became very introverted, and but I was out on just out on my own all the time, but it's allowing me to keep that obsession going, but without all the the mither and the anxiety. So uh, you know, that's what it's meant to me, just to keep my life keep my life as it is, but without the without the mental attitude that I had about it.

Better Pub Choice And A New Brew

SPEAKER_03 1:03:23

Well this is the thing, isn't it? It's more than just a liquid. We can look at it as as a liquid, and we can look at it as a drink, we can look at it as as a beer, we can look at it however you want to, we can objectify it in what whatever way you want. But it's more than that, isn't it? Because it's it's inclusion and it's everything that comes with that, it's community, it fits into every facet of life. And I think at at its core, it's belonging. And that's I think that's probably what it means to me, because I could take little parts of what everybody has said there and think, right, that that was me, that was me, that was me. And alcohol-free beer was just it wasn't like a reincarnation of myself, because you know that that sounds that's over-dramaticising what actually happened, but it allowed me to keep to keep living when I thought that there was no point anymore. And uh it sounds severe, doesn't it? But you know, I I did I tried to kill myself twice when I was drinking alcohol because I didn't think there was another way off that, you know, and I wasn't ready to completely change my life. I wasn't ready to be a different person. And alcohol free beer showed me but I didn't need to be a different person. I could still go to the pub, I could still go to wet places, I could still be with my friends, I could still drink beer, I could still have something in my hand. And actually it's you know, we talked about how eloquent everybody was when when talking about what alcohol free beer meant to them. Whenever anybody asks me that question on on podcasts, in interviews, I fall apart and all words fail me, and I go, um well it's just I've just done it then, and ended up saying, Oh, it's everything. Because how can you pigeonhole one thing that saved your life? That's my take on it, and it's a pleasure to have met each and every one of you through this liquid and to continue talking to each and every one of you through this liquid, and to watch you all on your journeys as well, because it's just lovely to see and it's lovely to share. And this community, I said earlier on on social media, you know, one thing I didn't think I'd find in in this world is is a a second family, and that's absolutely what I have found, you know, in the sober community, but also in the world of beer. And that's probably been the biggest shock is actually finding people in the world of beer through alcohol free beer. So with that, unless anybody has anything interesting to say to finish. Go on then, go on then, Mr. Shameless Pug. Mr. Beer, go on. It's well it's it's got a can!

unknown 1:05:56

Whoa!

SPEAKER_02 1:05:58

No, actually, no, it's not right to. Don't get excited. So basically, this is a sticker, and I've put it over a kind of lifted because I was never gonna drink it. But yeah, so basically we're just um we're getting really, really close with it. We're we've got some really good chats, and the guy's helping me with it. It's it should be, I would like to think, in the next few months. But one thing I had uh like we did a brainstorm yesterday about kind of what the brand means and everything, and you know, one of the words connection, and but it's also what is the one thing with regards to choice that we're all looking for? Like if you've got if there's shit choice, you leave, you don't stick around. So, what do pubs want you to do? They want you to stay longer, but then obviously, what do you want to what do you want a friend to do? You want them to stay longer. So, in a way, we're kind of going down that route. It's like it's that's what beer is, it's an opportunity for you to stay longer. And I think that's when I sort of touched on that, I just thought that's that for me is what it's about. You know, it's uh flavour, yes, of course, and everything, but it's you know, it's making people feel welcome. And so I'm so so excited, and obviously, thank you so much for everyone for being so positive about it. And look, I'm not expecting to take over the world with it. You know, it's gonna be a locally source, locally brewed, but it's something I'm really passionate about. But Ben, I've got to thank you for that. You've really led me down this path. You've showed you've introduced me to all these amazing people, and you've really given me a love for something and purpose when I was in a 17-year career thinking that was my life paved out for me. I left it with no clue what I was gonna do, and if it wasn't for you, I don't think I'd be on this path. So thank you so so much.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:33

Hey man, look, I I just it's it's awkward. I mean, I appreciate it. Henry was talking about his beer that he's releasing, but it's very exciting for those of you that aren't watching uh the visuals of this, which I don't I don't actually know if I'm gonna release a visual, but I'll probably I'll release that snippet just for you. Definitely that the goodness you're doing that now. Morgan, stop, please. That's true. How do you know, Morgan?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:58

Okay, let's go. Three of them.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:02

Is it gonna be in a toilet? We've got an hour and 17 minutes in, and then we turn to the colour.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:10

I mean a a chip like my spare room basically.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:13

Fine, good. Just that one hour on it.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:19

No, so I I started talking about this stuff because Martin Dixon, Alcohol Free World, needs a shout out because Martin Dixon is the OG of this world. What Martin Dixon doesn't know about alcohol-free beer isn't worth knowing, quite frankly. And it was I found Martin's page and I thought, why are more people not talking about this? Similar to uh to to the start of the Sober Sloth. Why why are more people not aware of this? And for me, I I started talking about beer because I didn't want anyone else out there to feel like I did the day that I realised I had to stop drinking booze. I didn't want anybody else to feel like I had to stop drinking beer. Because if I'd have known what I know now, it would have been so much easier. And I think too, you know, I think of the amount of people out there that are really struggling with addiction or with anything, that aren't going to be around for much longer for whatever reason. And I think if it was an off-ramp, and if that off-ramp was in liquid form, as it was for me, then it it's a tragedy, isn't it? If more people don't know about it. So that's that's my modus operanda is just to say this stuff exists. If it works for you, then awesome. If it doesn't, which obviously we we have to stress, alcohol-free beer doesn't work for everybody who is an addict or for for you know, some people just don't like the taste of beer, then that's fine, but if it works for you, awesome. Um and in terms of hospitality, I think it's cater for one person or risk losing four. You know, if I'm going out with my mates, and I'm sure each and every one of you, if you're going out with people and you go to somewhere and they don't do alcohol free, the whole group of you is gonna leave. Whereas if they do, you're all gonna stay. You're all gonna drink drinks of different ABVs because that's fine. It's about inclusivity, it's about just everybody having a seat at a table, so cater for one, risk losing four.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:10

I mean that's it, it's a one in it's the one in four are you quoting the one in four statistic that one in four visits to a pub are moderate, moderating or non-alcoholic.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:19

Well no, mine was if there's a group of four people and you don't cater for for Right, no, there is I I'm sure.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:25

And you're gonna lose me and my three mates. I've probably I've probably stopped. I think there's also a statistic which is that out of every four visits, so uh again it's like four people, but will go into a pub or go into a pub or somewhere in hospitality and it will they will want something similar. And you you can ask even people who were like, Oh you know, I could never give up, we go, right, okay. So of the last four times you went to the pub, was there a time you didn't drink? And they'll kind of go, Yeah, because I went on a lunchtime and I had a Coke or a you know, and so they have had a non-alcoholic experience in the pub. So there's always everyone has had it, so it kind of goes up and up. So when you kind of go, well, actually, if one in four experiences are now non-alcoholic in a pub, fuck me, you've got to be providing better options across the board, better spirits, cider, draft pubs. I've I mean I've I've along said, you know, if you've got uh 10 pumps in a pub of for keg, one of those should be alcohol free. And for every 10 you go up, you add another keg of alcohol-free beer as a bloody standard, you know, like basic minimum. Um, and the same in the fridge, 10% of the fridge should also be alcohol free as well, at least. And again, bare minimum, because you could just see how much that would change some pubs to be pretty darn decent. But yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:34

Pratuitous shout-out for the Nelly and Tunbridge for having two AFs on all the time. Good stuff. And it's got like 24 lines on. Like things you love to see when you walk into a pub that sells amazing craft beer, amazing cask for the old gammony types, as Ben would call them. And then, you know, like you got something for me as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:52

Lovely stuff. I mean I say I I was cask was like cask and cheap lager, they were my kind of drinks. I'm basically a Brexit voter.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:00

I mean, I would love to I'd love some more like I'd like the worlds of gammon and and breck gammony Brexit beers, but in alcohol free. Like, somebody's gonna get cask right, aren't they? Apparently. I mean a really good cask, you know, that kind of beer that you want a like a really good sort of rounded bitter or a red ale or a amber ale, something you could just have on a big cask, slightly warm next to the fire.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:25

Apparently, Birmingham Brewing Co did do a cask once, and I don't believe that I didn't go and drink it.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:31

Yeah, I mean obviously cask well the problem with cask beer is you obviously have to turn it's a glive product usually, usually you have to turn it around in like three weeks, which is why it's it's almost weight like it's it's even gonna happen at a festival. So a festival where alcohol free is given such a high profile that it will just turn around. Because even like I thought when I went when Jordan invited me to as it turned out the last indie man and Mash Gang were pouring in the back room. I thought this was like great Mashgang have been invited to this thing, this is gonna be amazing, it's gonna be loads of they were the only one, and they and obviously they had some keg cock-ups. They only had one keg of beer and it was practically out by the first the end of the first day. So not a great representation of alcohol free, unfortunately. And you could see that obviously with the Great Gammon Festival, obviously you could see that they were trying to be that little bit further down the line. And I think at some point it it'll come, um, a festival that manages to balance a really decent amount of alcohol free, and at the same time that sort of keeps everybody who's in the ABV section sort of going. Actually, if everyone's not getting wild, should we not get wild? Should we moderate? Should should we try some of that stuff? Wow, that's actually really good. Well, you mean I could go home and get a train and don't get have to be completely off my head.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:44

Well, I hope to see the day. I hope to see the day. Thank you, everybody, for coming to have this this little chat. We didn't descend into Anarchy, which is nice. Organizing, well it was supposed to be it was supposed to be twelve people. Um so shout out to AME, actually, and to um to Jay, who tried to join the call and their internet wasn't letting them. Um but to each and every one of you, I say a great big cheers. Keep doing incredible things, keep drinking lots of beer, whatever that looks like to you, because that's what this is all about. And um, well, I mean, we'll talk probably in in five minutes.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:18

Cheers, Ben. Thank you for the platform, mate. Thank you for the conversation, the connection. This has been this has been my first podcast I've seen. It's been an absolute delight. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:28

Lovely. It's been lovely.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:31

Thank you for listening to this special episode of the Sober Boozers Club podcast. I want to thank every single person that took part in that conversation. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. My name is Ben Gibbs. You can find me on all the socials at Sober Boozers Club. Until next time, dear friends, I hope whatever is in your class, it's bloody delicious.